S2E14: A Dauntless Media Post-Election Roundtable

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:11] I have loved, loved, loved learning those things and building that and then realizing I'm okay.

[00:00:18] No matter what happens in the world, it's so unsafe and feels so uncertain.

[00:00:24] I know that inside of me, I can be and I am okay and I love me and I am gentle with myself.

[00:00:32] And that is a safe place.

[00:00:41] I know, we're going to have to mark this as explicit because I can't think of any other way to talk about all this without saying fucking Texas every time I say the word Texas.

[00:00:50] Oh man.

[00:00:51] It's fair, it's appropriate.

[00:00:52] Yeah.

[00:00:53] Well, welcome.

[00:00:55] Yeah, okay.

[00:00:56] I guess, you know what, Jessica, your voice hasn't been heard very much lately.

[00:01:03] So do you want to go ahead and give us our intro?

[00:01:06] Sure, sure.

[00:01:08] I am okay with that.

[00:01:09] I didn't plan it, but you know, we can go on the fly here.

[00:01:13] All right.

[00:01:13] Well, hello and welcome to another podcast with all of us.

[00:01:20] We're the Dauntless Media Collective.

[00:01:21] The Dauntless Media Collective.

[00:01:23] Yes.

[00:01:23] Yeah.

[00:01:24] Some of.

[00:01:25] Some of.

[00:01:25] Some of us.

[00:01:26] Yeah.

[00:01:26] Yeah.

[00:01:27] Welcome to some of the Dauntless Media Collective podcast hosts.

[00:01:31] We are here today to react.

[00:01:35] Three days.

[00:01:36] Post.

[00:01:37] Oh my God.

[00:01:37] Post.

[00:01:38] It's hard to even spit out like election, post election.

[00:01:42] Three days.

[00:01:43] It feels.

[00:01:43] Does it feel like a longer period of time?

[00:01:45] It does.

[00:01:46] That has gone by in three days or how are you guys feeling?

[00:01:48] It feels like a week at least to me.

[00:01:50] Yeah.

[00:01:51] Hard to say.

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:52] Why don't we name who all is here?

[00:01:54] Let's go around the table.

[00:01:56] Cool.

[00:01:57] I'll kick us off.

[00:01:58] So I'm Nate.

[00:01:59] I use he, him pronouns and I'm one of the co-hosts of the Full Mutuality podcast with my partner,

[00:02:06] Gail.

[00:02:07] I'm Gail and I'm she, her and yeah, other co-hosts.

[00:02:10] I'm Maggie.

[00:02:11] I use she, her pronouns and I host the Hello Deconstructionist podcast.

[00:02:16] I'm Scott.

[00:02:17] Reporting live from Minneapolis.

[00:02:20] He, him pronouns.

[00:02:22] I do the Chapel Probation and Horny Chapel podcast.

[00:02:26] Yes.

[00:02:27] I am Jessica Goforth.

[00:02:29] I am, I use she, her programs.

[00:02:32] I am of the Leaving the Village podcast and yeah, here we go.

[00:02:38] Yeah.

[00:02:39] Yeah.

[00:02:39] And on behalf of our other podcasts, the, you know, some of our friends weren't able to

[00:02:45] make it, you know, this was a very last minute kind of thing, but just wanted to give them

[00:02:49] all a shout out.

[00:02:50] But, you know, our friends over at the thereafter podcast, Cortland and Megan.

[00:02:54] Yes.

[00:02:55] And of course, Daniel over at Profane Faith and our newest podcast, actually, Alicia and

[00:03:02] Wild Violet over at Not Safe for Worship.

[00:03:06] And who am I missing?

[00:03:07] Am I missing anyone else?

[00:03:09] Oh, well, Camille and I have yet to get started on How False a Foundation, but we're, you know,

[00:03:14] Camille's part of the, part of the network as well.

[00:03:16] So very relevant talking about KKK history in, in our, in evangelicalism.

[00:03:22] Yeah.

[00:03:22] Pretty on the nose.

[00:03:24] Yeah.

[00:03:24] Pretty on the nose.

[00:03:26] Here we are.

[00:03:27] So, I mean, maybe, maybe it'd even be helpful to when we, you know, I think I want to know

[00:03:33] how you're all doing, but locate yourself for us, where you're coming in from this, what your

[00:03:38] surroundings have been up to this point in where you're located, how you were feeling

[00:03:42] before, how you're feeling now.

[00:03:44] Maybe we could just go around and kind of just situate, yeah, how, how it's been for

[00:03:48] each of us over the last three days and even a little before.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:52] I can start.

[00:03:53] I'm, this is Maggie for people who aren't familiar with my voice.

[00:03:57] I'm in Massachusetts.

[00:03:58] I'm outside of Boston and Massachusetts always goes blue.

[00:04:02] So I feel really lucky in that sense, but I'm in about 45 minutes outside of Boston.

[00:04:09] So I'm in a more conservative part of Massachusetts.

[00:04:11] So there are people on my street with Trump signs, people on my street with like gun stickers

[00:04:17] on their trucks.

[00:04:18] And so it feels eerily like rural upstate New York where I grew up, even though, you know,

[00:04:25] it's, it's also a blue state, but I'm kind of here in this sort of rural area in it.

[00:04:30] And I'm, I've just been noticing like the differences between 2016 and now.

[00:04:35] And in 2016, I voted for Hillary.

[00:04:39] I went to the women's March in January of 2017.

[00:04:42] So I really like felt the weight of it then too.

[00:04:45] But this time it almost just feels like status quo rather than something like really shocking.

[00:04:53] I mean, it is shocking.

[00:04:54] And I feel like I have been in shock the last couple of days, but, but it's still like,

[00:05:00] you know, I think about my students, I'm an elementary school teacher and I think about

[00:05:03] my students and this is all that they've ever known.

[00:05:06] Like they've never had a world where Trump wasn't a politician who was speaking.

[00:05:11] And so it's sort of like less surprising than it was in 2016 almost.

[00:05:16] And that, that feels kind of weird and jarring.

[00:05:19] Because it was such a shock the first time around and everyone was just like, what the

[00:05:23] heck?

[00:05:24] And now it's sort of for the next generation.

[00:05:26] Like, yeah, we all know this is a politician and on the scene.

[00:05:29] Right.

[00:05:29] And I also, I realized the privilege that I am coming in with to say that the first time

[00:05:34] it was a shock.

[00:05:35] It's like, these things weren't new in America, but they were being spoken so loudly.

[00:05:41] And I mean, that just shows that like, I wasn't feeling the effects of it as much as many

[00:05:47] other people in the country were.

[00:05:48] So I also want to, I want to make sure to say that too.

[00:05:51] Like these aren't new ideas and the fact that it felt shocking in 2016 shows that, yeah,

[00:05:58] that I'm coming into this with a really privileged view.

[00:06:01] So I want to make sure that that's clear at the beginning of this too.

[00:06:04] But yeah, that's kind of where I've been the last couple of days.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:07] I can go next to kind of contrast because you guys are also back East, but yeah.

[00:06:12] Take us, take us to Texas.

[00:06:13] Take us to Red, Texas.

[00:06:15] I'll start by my, my sense of things.

[00:06:20] You know, I'm Jessica, by the way, and I'm the Leaving the Village podcast.

[00:06:24] And I've talked a lot about my deconstruction from the cult of IBLP ATI that the Duggars

[00:06:32] were a part of.

[00:06:34] And of course, Texas is known for being very, very, very red.

[00:06:39] And I am new to Texas.

[00:06:42] I did not grow up here.

[00:06:43] I came here about 12 years ago, 14 years ago.

[00:06:46] And I was being, going through the change to being more liberal that whole time.

[00:06:55] So by the time we get to 2016, I was very, very hopeful that Hillary would get elected.

[00:07:02] I didn't feel able to vote for her because I was in a very abusive relationship where

[00:07:06] he was having tight control over my choice, my ability to vote and how I voted.

[00:07:12] And so when she lost, I was devastated and I couldn't, couldn't deal with this.

[00:07:20] And my mental health went very much downhill during the Trump years.

[00:07:24] My post-separation abuse, because I was going through my divorce during that time, ramped

[00:07:29] up so much more.

[00:07:30] And so I felt very affected by it.

[00:07:31] So I got very involved in 2018 in Texas, where we were trying to get Beto O'Rourke elected

[00:07:39] as our, in place of Cruz, Ted Cruz.

[00:07:43] And I was very hopeful and very excited.

[00:07:45] And if you followed the politics of Texas at that time, you'll know that he only lost

[00:07:49] by like two points.

[00:07:50] It was very close and it was very exciting to everyone that even got that close.

[00:07:55] And now, you know, we were just so excited and hopeful that this was it.

[00:08:00] Like we, a lot of Texas counties flipped blue in 2020 and voted for Biden.

[00:08:06] And we were very excited about this.

[00:08:08] It was like, okay, okay, okay.

[00:08:10] We've got some momentum going, you know?

[00:08:12] And 2022 seemed okay.

[00:08:15] You know, we got stuck with Governor Abbott again.

[00:08:18] And that was a huge disappointment when he lost again, Beto ran against him.

[00:08:25] And that was a very big blow.

[00:08:26] But we kept thinking, okay, Texas is headed in the right direction.

[00:08:30] It's getting more blue.

[00:08:33] So here we go.

[00:08:35] And I went into this.

[00:08:36] I did block walking for Harris.

[00:08:39] I worked early voting.

[00:08:41] I'm an election judge.

[00:08:42] So I worked the polls and all this.

[00:08:44] And I was just like, woohoo, we got this.

[00:08:46] This is happening.

[00:08:47] I can feel it.

[00:08:47] I can feel it.

[00:08:48] It's coming.

[00:08:49] I called you for emotional support before the election because I was holding my breath.

[00:08:54] And you were like, Gail, I'm in Texas.

[00:08:56] This is exciting.

[00:08:57] There's good energy here.

[00:08:58] And I was like, okay, if you're in Texas and there's good energy, I'll calm down.

[00:09:01] I was like, thank you for talking me down because I'm worried.

[00:09:04] And I could not have been more wrong.

[00:09:06] Like I, okay, so I will give you some stats and some things that I've, some notes that I wrote

[00:09:12] of what actually happened on election day and where we ended up in Texas.

[00:09:15] But one of the little tiny bright spots is Amarillo did not pass their abortion travel ban, which

[00:09:23] was something they were really trying to get past where you could be prosecuted for traveling

[00:09:28] on their roads to get out of state to New Mexico and get an abortion.

[00:09:33] Oh, wow.

[00:09:34] Because that's on the border of New Mexico.

[00:09:37] Because Texas has an abortion ban and it's a strict one.

[00:09:41] And yeah.

[00:09:42] Yeah.

[00:09:42] It's six weeks and most people don't know they're pregnant by then.

[00:09:45] And after that, you can go to jail.

[00:09:48] You can go to jail for a life if you perform an abortion.

[00:09:51] Like it's bad here.

[00:09:53] It's very, very bad.

[00:09:53] So that's a tiny little glimmer of hope.

[00:09:56] That's the only thing.

[00:09:57] I mean, we still, we kept Jasmine Crockett in the house.

[00:10:01] That's good.

[00:10:03] She's amazing.

[00:10:04] And we're really happy to have her and a few others that we hung on to as well.

[00:10:09] But Ted Cruz beat Colin Allred by nine points.

[00:10:13] Yeah.

[00:10:13] And Trump beat Harris in Texas by 14 points.

[00:10:20] And let me see if I can read this correctly.

[00:10:23] So Trump beat Harris by 14 percentage points in Texas, a significant increase from his five

[00:10:30] point advantage over Joe Biden in 2020 and his nine point lead over Hillary Clinton in

[00:10:35] 2016.

[00:10:36] So it's like a massive, massive swing towards Trump.

[00:10:38] So this is not better.

[00:10:40] We're not even close to headed in the right direction.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:44] So it's just, it's a lot.

[00:10:46] It's a lot to take in.

[00:10:47] One of the biggest, biggest blows to me was South Texas, the Rio Grande Valley, which is

[00:10:54] very Hispanic and has been the, the Texas is blue wall.

[00:11:00] And it went red this time.

[00:11:02] And that, that is what pushed us so far over in Texas.

[00:11:07] And I was just not prepared for this.

[00:11:12] And, and, but I, you know, I have all the notes, you know, the Republican party invested a tremendous

[00:11:17] amount of money down there in the Rio Grande Valley.

[00:11:19] They did a tremendous amount of fear mongering and worry about the border.

[00:11:25] And my daughter lives there.

[00:11:26] I go down there all the time.

[00:11:27] I've never noticed it to feel unsafe.

[00:11:29] I've never experienced anything down there.

[00:11:33] And I don't believe she has either.

[00:11:35] So it's just one of those things where it's like, it's in their heads as a thing.

[00:11:40] That's not a thing.

[00:11:41] Right.

[00:11:41] This border crime, this idea that the border is this lawless, scary place.

[00:11:46] So, yeah, this is really where, where Harris lost is in the minority vote.

[00:11:53] If the minorities had sided with her the way they did with Biden, we wouldn't be where

[00:11:59] we are today.

[00:12:00] I am trying to stay hopeful.

[00:12:01] I am connecting with people in person.

[00:12:05] We're focusing our Facebook groups for like local into like, okay, let's stop talking on

[00:12:13] Facebook.

[00:12:13] Let's, let's go meet.

[00:12:14] Let's go down to this coffee shop.

[00:12:16] Let's go to this park.

[00:12:16] Let's all go for a walk.

[00:12:18] Last night we all went and did yoga at the public library, which is just a block from my

[00:12:22] house.

[00:12:23] We all stayed and talked in the parking lot until well into the night.

[00:12:27] It was very healing.

[00:12:28] It's very good that we are, and these are people I have, you know, been having conversations

[00:12:34] with on Facebook for the last two years.

[00:12:37] We've never met in person and we are now.

[00:12:39] And so that is, I think that's hopeful.

[00:12:42] I think that's huge.

[00:12:43] And I think that's how things change is when we look people in the face and we know who

[00:12:46] they are.

[00:12:47] We know that we can go knock on their door and we have their numbers in our phone and

[00:12:50] we can text them and say, Hey, can you help me out?

[00:12:53] We've got this situation.

[00:12:54] This is going on.

[00:12:56] So I'm hopeful about that.

[00:12:57] I think that's our only way forward.

[00:12:59] So that's me.

[00:13:01] That's Texas.

[00:13:03] Let's, let's go to the West coast now.

[00:13:06] Yeah.

[00:13:07] Scott, what was it like out there?

[00:13:08] Scott, what's happening?

[00:13:10] Oh, that's me.

[00:13:12] Tell me if it's, I'm not, I'm now walking on a major street.

[00:13:15] So if it gets too loud, just let me know.

[00:13:17] Okay.

[00:13:17] It sounds all right.

[00:13:19] West coast.

[00:13:21] Definitely insulated from reality.

[00:13:24] A lot of my friends were feeling really hopeful this time because why wouldn't a logical person

[00:13:33] feel hopeful that America would not vote for convicted rapists, convicted business fraud

[00:13:40] person.

[00:13:41] A 34 times felon.

[00:13:42] Who can't use racism.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] Who can't finish sentences.

[00:13:46] Right.

[00:13:47] You know, why?

[00:13:48] Why?

[00:13:48] And we know why.

[00:13:50] Misogyny.

[00:13:51] Racism.

[00:13:52] All the things.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:54] A lot of us weren't surprised, you know, but I thought it was going to be closer.

[00:13:58] You know, they got their abortion bans.

[00:14:00] They got, you know, so they focused on trans people.

[00:14:03] They focused on people in my community.

[00:14:07] And apparently that works.

[00:14:09] And, you know, if Paris was a man, we'd probably be having a different conversation.

[00:14:17] I just feel like half a big chunk of the country is not ready to vote for a woman.

[00:14:22] Right.

[00:14:23] Just to point out some of the, you know, minority, white folks, but also white folks

[00:14:28] too, you know.

[00:14:29] Yes, please.

[00:14:30] We need to talk about this.

[00:14:31] If white folks voted for Harris, we would be fine too.

[00:14:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:36] It's just, it's a problem all the way around, right?

[00:14:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:39] And.

[00:14:40] Even if Democrats had just turned up out like they did for Biden.

[00:14:44] For Harris.

[00:14:45] Yeah.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] And I get, like if you're a Palestinian or even if you're a Muslim American.

[00:14:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:54] And you're watching kids being blown up intense with the stuff that we gained in Israel.

[00:15:00] I, I, there's a part of me that understands.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:03] They're like, fuck America, let it burn to the ground.

[00:15:05] Because they're just, we're just standing by watching genocide happen.

[00:15:11] You know, and nobody gives a shit.

[00:15:12] Hardly anybody.

[00:15:14] And so there's a part of me that's like, yeah, we kind of deserve Trump and the coming

[00:15:19] apocalypse of Project 1725.

[00:15:23] And I mean, yeah.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:26] So the reaction on the West Coast is probably shock.

[00:15:29] I didn't even watch the returns.

[00:15:31] I think I watched, started watching at like 4 p.m. Pacific Coast time.

[00:15:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:36] And I decided I don't want to put myself through the nightmare that 2016 was.

[00:15:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:55] There's legal weeds in California.

[00:15:57] We're very thankful for that.

[00:15:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:59] So that's where we are.

[00:16:00] Sorry, I'm walking by a bus now.

[00:16:02] Oh, no worries.

[00:16:03] So yeah.

[00:16:03] Y'all take it away before I just keep spinning into existential crisis.

[00:16:09] Yeah.

[00:16:10] We'll have time for that too.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:12] I guess I'll, I'll give the report from the East.

[00:16:14] We don't have anybody that could talk about the Southeast, but I'll head, we'll bring

[00:16:18] us back.

[00:16:19] We got Maggie on the East too.

[00:16:20] We've got a lot of East here.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] We'll bring us back to, to the Northeast.

[00:16:23] So I live just about a 25 minute train ride from Midtown Manhattan.

[00:16:30] This area of the country is very, very, very heavily blue.

[00:16:35] I mean, it's, it's a major urban area.

[00:16:38] I mean, we, we often think of New York city as a huge city, but New York city is also, it

[00:16:44] spreads out into New Jersey quite a bit, both Newark and Jersey city, which are two of New

[00:16:51] Jersey's largest metropolitan areas.

[00:16:54] They're New York city extensions pretty much.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:56] They're right across the river from New York city.

[00:16:57] So it kind of feels like, I don't know if you remember, um, the, I think it was either

[00:17:03] Batman begins or the dark night.

[00:17:05] And there's just this sprawling urban kind of view, like this, the, the skyline and you

[00:17:11] can't see the end of a city.

[00:17:12] That's kind of what it's like over here.

[00:17:15] Sure.

[00:17:15] Manhattan has the skyscrapers, but if you get on top of say the world trade center and you

[00:17:19] look out, you don't see anything that isn't urban.

[00:17:22] So that's kind of where I were, where I am placed and it's very reliably blue, but the,

[00:17:28] the little town that I'm in, the little neighborhood I'm in is a, a bit of a 50, 50 toss up neighborhood.

[00:17:35] It went red.

[00:17:37] Yeah, it went, well, it went, yeah, it went for, for Trump back in 2020 by like, it was

[00:17:45] 51 ish to Biden's 49 this year.

[00:17:48] I haven't looked at anything.

[00:17:50] I mean, you know, votes haven't entirely been counted yet across the country and probably

[00:17:54] the same or more for, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

[00:17:57] Um, thankfully our County Bergen County, I say thankfully as if it means anything, but

[00:18:01] you know, Bergen County went blue.

[00:18:04] Most of, I mean, New Jersey itself, obviously, uh, went for Harris.

[00:18:08] Um, there wasn't really much of a threat that it would turn, but I, you know, looking at

[00:18:11] the overall numbers, it is a little bit scary how close Trump got here.

[00:18:15] And, uh, at least for, for almost the entirety of my life, New Jersey has been a stronghold

[00:18:20] of, you know, democratic, uh, votes.

[00:18:25] And, uh, I think the last time Jersey went Republican in the general election for the,

[00:18:31] for president was George H W Bush's first term.

[00:18:36] So yeah.

[00:18:37] So the sentiment out here, I feel I say, I'm sorry.

[00:18:41] I'm not actually home right now, but the sentiment in New Jersey, I think is probably a little

[00:18:47] bit shocked because there was excitement in some of those towns for Harris though.

[00:18:54] At the same time, I was a little bit surprised at the lack of Harris walls signs.

[00:19:00] Usually when like for Biden, for Obama, there was a lot of, of signage everywhere.

[00:19:06] I only reliably saw, you know, people turning out for Harris walls in the campaign in the

[00:19:13] sort of performatively blue towns like Montclair and Maplewood.

[00:19:18] So if you're in New Jersey, there are a couple of towns that are very, very, very left wing

[00:19:23] in their sort of political activity.

[00:19:27] Uh, it tends to be performative because some of the policies within those towns don't really

[00:19:33] reflect how the people tend to want to vote.

[00:19:36] But those were the only towns that I really saw signage for, for Harris and walls.

[00:19:41] I think signage can be so misleading because my town was the opposite.

[00:19:47] Like 2020, I think I saw maybe three signs for Biden at all ever.

[00:19:52] Okay.

[00:19:53] Like nobody.

[00:19:53] And we had this town nearly completely painted with Harris signs.

[00:19:57] I mean, it was 50, 50, the energy and excitement I felt from the Democrat party here in town

[00:20:04] was stunning for Harris.

[00:20:07] And I was excited, but again, this has to do with leadership.

[00:20:10] This has to do with the party leadership in your town and it has to do with the money

[00:20:14] that they raise and the enthusiasm that whoever is in charge has.

[00:20:19] And they affect whether people buy or pick up signs and put them out.

[00:20:24] And I don't, I don't think in blue States, they care to invest the money to rally the troops

[00:20:30] because they're like, you guys are good.

[00:20:31] And that was, this is not where we need to put Pennsylvania.

[00:20:33] I think that was one of the things that sort of, that sort of frustrated me about the Harris

[00:20:38] campaign.

[00:20:38] And I know we're kind of talking, you know, a political strategy and whatnot, and that's

[00:20:41] not who we are.

[00:20:42] We, none of us have like political strategy experience.

[00:20:46] Um, we're, we're all ex, we're, we're cult survivors.

[00:20:50] We're ex evangelicals.

[00:20:52] And we'll, we'll get to, to some of that sort of reflection.

[00:20:55] But I think right now we're all kind of grasping at straws.

[00:20:57] I kind of feel myself right now sort of, sorry, not that sounds a little harsh.

[00:21:02] I kind of feel myself sort of grasping, just looking for answers, looking for what I can

[00:21:07] kind of hold on to.

[00:21:08] And one of the things that, that bothered me a little bit was the fact that Harris didn't

[00:21:15] show up in New Jersey during her campaign.

[00:21:18] And that's not to say that that would have changed anything because yeah, New Jersey

[00:21:21] didn't flip, but it just, it, to me, and maybe, you know, it was the fact that her campaign

[00:21:26] only lasted a hundred days.

[00:21:27] You know, uh, we could probably point fingers at, at Biden for not stepping down earlier

[00:21:32] and giving Harris a longer campaign so that she could done, she could have done more work.

[00:21:35] We could point our fingers at Merrick Garland for not having actually gotten Trump behind

[00:21:41] bars, you know, at all every there's the, cause we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[00:21:45] If the justice department had done their job and sure, you know, I'm, I realize I'm getting

[00:21:50] angry and animated right now, but you know, I think that's the point of sitting down to

[00:21:54] chat.

[00:21:55] Yeah.

[00:21:56] Let it out.

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:57] That's, that is what I wanted from us is for us to be able to go into from our head to our

[00:22:03] hearts, because a lot of us are having a lot of feelings and we need to process this.

[00:22:08] One thing I do want to bring up, and I know we'll probably be talking about this a little

[00:22:11] bit, but one thing I want to bring up is as we are doing this, processing it, pointing

[00:22:15] fingers, asking questions, I think, you know, and you have, Gail, I know how you have a lot

[00:22:21] of thoughts on this as well, but one thing I want to mention that I think is important

[00:22:25] for all of us to really pay attention to is we're turning on our people.

[00:22:31] And I'm seeing a lot of rhetoric from the democratic party, from democratic loyalists that is

[00:22:36] vilifying trans people and blaming them for what happened.

[00:22:42] Trans people are 1% of the population here.

[00:22:46] Even if they came out, 100% of them in droves and voted third party or against Harris for

[00:22:51] whatever reason, that wouldn't have made even close to a dent.

[00:22:55] And regardless, the issue then, I think I heard some political commentator talking about how,

[00:23:01] oh, you know, they're using right wing talking points now.

[00:23:05] They're saying, I believe that, you know, biologically male, quote unquote, should not be playing in

[00:23:12] women's sports.

[00:23:14] These are not, these are not how, how we should be talking.

[00:23:18] There's a Democrat, the Democrats are having to figure out what do we do?

[00:23:22] This didn't work.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:23] Whatever we did last time didn't work.

[00:23:25] What do we do going forward?

[00:23:26] And there's a choice, right?

[00:23:27] There's a, we stay with exactly where we've been.

[00:23:29] We go for further left and we include more people or we try and compromise more of our

[00:23:36] values to suck away right wing people.

[00:23:39] Like this is literally like the question that has to be asked from internally is like, what

[00:23:43] do we do to win?

[00:23:44] And, and do we, do we compromise who we are?

[00:23:47] I feel like it has already happened in the last election and might.

[00:23:51] All right.

[00:23:51] I'm going to give my thoughts.

[00:23:52] Gail here coming in from, from Canada.

[00:23:55] I'm in Canada right now.

[00:23:56] I have my SSN.

[00:23:58] I have my American passport.

[00:24:00] You are a dual citizen.

[00:24:01] I am a dual citizen.

[00:24:02] I voted for the very first time.

[00:24:04] I was, I was really trying to get my paperwork in order to vote for the first time.

[00:24:07] And I did, I succeeded to do that.

[00:24:09] I was like, I am going to vote for the first female president.

[00:24:12] Yay.

[00:24:12] This will be historic.

[00:24:13] It is historic.

[00:24:14] Not in the way that I was planning for this vote.

[00:24:18] Not in the way we hoped.

[00:24:19] No.

[00:24:20] And, and like in 2016, so Canadians are watching this.

[00:24:24] Where are your other neighbors?

[00:24:25] The ones that are less talked about and no one's trying to build a border wall with us.

[00:24:28] Although maybe we should.

[00:24:29] I don't know.

[00:24:30] I don't know.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:31] You know, but, but Canadians watch carefully.

[00:24:33] Our economic ties are tied to the U.S.

[00:24:37] We're, we're each other's biggest trading partners, actually, Canada and U.S. between

[00:24:40] each other.

[00:24:40] So most Canadians are like, what the heck is going on in the U.S.?

[00:24:45] Like what is, when 2016 happened, Canadians were just like shocked and horrified and didn't

[00:24:51] know what to do.

[00:24:51] Obama was popular here.

[00:24:54] And when Trump took over, they were just like, what happened?

[00:24:57] And I remember following it along.

[00:24:59] I think being evangelical in Canada, you pay a lot of attention to what's happening in the

[00:25:03] U.S.

[00:25:03] Because you hear about it nonstop through your evangelical sources, which are basically

[00:25:08] Samaritanism pumped in through evangelical church stuff.

[00:25:11] Christian nationalism.

[00:25:12] It's Christian nationalism.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:13] It's Christian nationalism.

[00:25:15] And I think, and we're getting into the evangelical topic, but I think Canadian evangelicals are

[00:25:19] in denial about how much like, hey, that Samaritan's Purse that you're doing in your

[00:25:24] church and all of our churches that's connected to the U.S.

[00:25:27] That Franklin Graham that leads that up.

[00:25:29] He loves Trump and supports him at every turn.

[00:25:32] Like, don't be like, oh, those weird, oh, evangelicals in the U.S.

[00:25:36] voted for Trump.

[00:25:37] Why?

[00:25:37] How?

[00:25:37] What?

[00:25:38] We're backing.

[00:25:39] The Canadian evangelicals are totally in that whole system without even an awareness sometimes

[00:25:43] of like, what?

[00:25:45] Because the nationalism message is not going to be played up here, right?

[00:25:48] Like, kind of turn our nation for Jesus.

[00:25:50] It's not going to fly in Canada.

[00:25:52] So a lot of the stuff is muted that you guys are hearing in evangelical churches.

[00:25:55] And so the Canadians are kind of in denial at how tied they are to the American event, how

[00:26:00] their evangelical churches are supporting and backing all of that and are completely tied into.

[00:26:04] That's such an interesting point, Gail.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:06] I hadn't thought about that.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:07] So watching that, 2016, moving to the U.S. for me, that's my New Year's plan.

[00:26:13] And I wasn't totally, I'm excited to be with Nate.

[00:26:15] We have been long distance dating for six years and I love him.

[00:26:19] We have been married for a year.

[00:26:20] Supposed to be moving down last year.

[00:26:22] It got tied up in red tape because it's hard to get a social security number, even when you're

[00:26:26] a citizen.

[00:26:26] So whatever they're saying about handing it out like candies and people voting, you know,

[00:26:30] and all that is lies.

[00:26:31] It's lies.

[00:26:32] You can be a white woman with an American citizenship and not be able to get your SSN, okay?

[00:26:36] Like this is how, how, how bad it is.

[00:26:39] It's not easy.

[00:26:40] They, they make it extra complicated for no reason.

[00:26:42] And I, I've been through that over the last year.

[00:26:44] So I was apprehensive because I'm, I'm leaving my children behind.

[00:26:49] They're grown.

[00:26:50] They're both adults.

[00:26:50] I'm leaving my mom, leaving my sister, my nieces, nephews, my friends, my community

[00:26:55] is all here.

[00:26:56] Been in my job for the last dozen years.

[00:26:57] I, it's, it's a big change for me.

[00:26:59] And I was having a lot of anxiety over change.

[00:27:02] I'm not good with, I'm not good with change.

[00:27:03] And everybody asks, why am I not the one moving to Canada?

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:07] And I ask myself that question all the time.

[00:27:10] Yes, sir.

[00:27:11] I bet you do.

[00:27:12] There are reasons.

[00:27:13] And we would go ahead and get your citizenship too, if you can.

[00:27:16] You have something else to be anxious about now.

[00:27:19] Yeah.

[00:27:19] So moving here as an option, at least moving back to Canada as an option for the two of

[00:27:24] us actually.

[00:27:25] And if we ever need to do that in the future.

[00:27:27] So that is helpful.

[00:27:28] But yeah, the anxiety over like I was already having and then watching those results and being

[00:27:34] like, this is what I'm coming into.

[00:27:36] This is, this is what I'm trading Canada for is it was my whole system.

[00:27:42] Just, I mean, when Nate and I stayed up with our friends watching the election till maybe

[00:27:47] one o'clock in the morning, one 30 Eastern time.

[00:27:49] And then we just were seeing the whole situation crumble in front of us.

[00:27:53] We went from, no, the numbers.

[00:27:54] I just kept running the numbers.

[00:27:55] I'm like, it could still work.

[00:27:56] It could still work.

[00:27:57] You're scribbling out this date.

[00:27:58] You're still counting these ones.

[00:27:59] You're like, okay, there's still enough.

[00:28:00] Mathematically, we're not eliminated.

[00:28:02] And then you get to the point where the clock ticks down and you're like, nope, that one

[00:28:05] is called.

[00:28:06] That one is called.

[00:28:06] We're, we're out of, we're out of states.

[00:28:09] And I hadn't officially been, you know, at that 270 mark when we just shut it off, we

[00:28:13] were just all stunned and felt sick to our stomach.

[00:28:17] Nate just turned 40 on, on, on one, as a result, I came in and I didn't even wish him a happy

[00:28:22] 40th.

[00:28:23] I was just, we all said good night.

[00:28:25] And then I called him back.

[00:28:25] I was like, I'm so sorry, babe.

[00:28:27] Happy birthday.

[00:28:28] Happy, happy 40th.

[00:28:29] I didn't think to even say it to you.

[00:28:31] I was just, we were just all, all shook.

[00:28:34] And, and I'll add in, like, I'm trying to think of why it was so stressful on my whole

[00:28:40] system and why I spent the next day calling Nate and we'd just cry on the phone together.

[00:28:43] But like, I saw what happened during the pandemic and I saw what happened to Nate and I saw what

[00:28:48] happened to Nate's family.

[00:28:50] I saw his relatives telling his 90 year old Lola not to take walks at night because people

[00:28:56] were beating up Asian seniors because of the coronavirus.

[00:29:01] And, and I saw Nate breaking down crying a lot during the pandemic and dealing with Asian

[00:29:07] hatred.

[00:29:07] And it was Trump fueling this stuff.

[00:29:09] He was there going China virus with his hands and his, like, he was just fueling and stoking

[00:29:15] this and then watching the repercussions of, you know, and I would be like, Nate, just turn

[00:29:20] off the news.

[00:29:21] And he's like, I can't.

[00:29:22] And he's like, look, guy my age just got pushed into the subway.

[00:29:25] You know, like Asian man, my age just got, got shoved into and died.

[00:29:30] Like any, it was every day.

[00:29:31] It wasn't like these were like once in a month scenarios.

[00:29:33] This was like a constant flow of violence.

[00:29:36] I mean, and he coming to visit me, stop in a rest stop in New York, upstate New York,

[00:29:40] and like have people make remarks because he's Asian and, you know, just stuff that he hadn't.

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:46] That was like up.

[00:29:47] Everything kind of went up a level in terms of hatred.

[00:29:49] And I think, I think I would have been less stressed out watching the election last night

[00:29:55] as a white woman had I not, you know, knowing I'm going to a blue state and that if I miss,

[00:29:59] because I had a mis, Nate and I had a miscarriage this, this past year and I'm in Canada.

[00:30:03] So there was no, care is fine.

[00:30:07] I didn't have to worry about anything.

[00:30:09] But it makes me think of all the women who are dying, who have, have a miscarriage and

[00:30:15] can't get proper care in the U S and I'm going to a blue state.

[00:30:18] So the stress, I think had I not been with Nate, had I not been with someone who where

[00:30:22] the impact was right there, right in front of me with a Trump candidacy and how that

[00:30:27] played out.

[00:30:27] I don't think the stress level in my body would have rocketed so high, but I'm like, damn,

[00:30:31] not again.

[00:30:32] No, like that was a lot to recover from.

[00:30:35] So doesn't it feel like we're like collectively as a nation getting back together with our abusive

[00:30:40] ex?

[00:30:41] It's just, it's how it feels.

[00:30:46] I literally, my nervous system.

[00:30:48] I wrote it.

[00:30:49] I wrote a sub, my first up stack.

[00:30:50] I haven't even published it yet, but it's titled America needs to break up with their abusive

[00:30:54] spouse.

[00:30:55] Like, and this is, this is how I feel about it.

[00:30:58] I'm like, and, and I guess the question in my head, and I'd love to hear all of your

[00:31:02] thoughts on this and maybe I'm jumping too far ahead.

[00:31:04] Cause I do kind of want to know where all your nervous systems are at.

[00:31:06] I know mine.

[00:31:07] I'll get, I'll get back to my thoughts on, on, on how, well, what we do with the people

[00:31:11] around us, but, and how we, how we regroup and what, what does this look like?

[00:31:16] But I know just going back to how I was feeling, I remember being like, am I overflowing this?

[00:31:22] I didn't sleep well last night.

[00:31:23] Cause we stayed up too late and, and I'm crying nonstop.

[00:31:25] And like, I get home and I look at my 24 year old Canadian son, white boy.

[00:31:30] And he's like, mom, I've, I felt sick to my stomach all day.

[00:31:34] Like I have just felt ill Canadian kid, not planning to move here with me, by the way,

[00:31:39] you know, not planning to move to the U S and he's just like, I'm sick to my stomach.

[00:31:43] Like all day long.

[00:31:44] I have not been able to get this out.

[00:31:45] And I felt so validated like that the, I wasn't blowing things out of proportion.

[00:31:49] If my kid that doesn't even live in the U S and is not planning to move there is,

[00:31:53] is nervous system is in a state of like wanting to throw up all day from what just happened.

[00:31:58] He's politically informed.

[00:31:59] He's a kid that follows politics very, has been involved in politics too, even here locally.

[00:32:04] I just, I think that made me break down crying more, which I needed.

[00:32:07] I think I need to, I dissociate sometimes and I can be good at that in crisis,

[00:32:11] but, and I see people doing that.

[00:32:13] And I think we need to, to some extent, it's a lot to take in.

[00:32:16] So I see people turning to being intellectual, to looking up statistics, to just tuning out

[00:32:21] everything and all that.

[00:32:22] I think there's a place like you need to, you need to function.

[00:32:25] You need to do your jobs, but there's that balance between still needing to process through

[00:32:29] eventually and, and needing to give yourself space to not be totally overwhelmed to the point

[00:32:34] where you can't function.

[00:32:35] So it's like weighing out where you are in that, you know, how much you need to distance yourself

[00:32:39] from everything, how you need to go to a different level than your heart to just not just feel

[00:32:43] suffocated and crushed versus how much you're going to need to just let in the reality and

[00:32:48] feel your feelings because they're legitimate.

[00:32:51] And I think my son was one of those things for me that was like, oh, I'm not, I'm not that

[00:32:57] emotional, crazy woman that I've been told I am my whole life.

[00:32:59] Like this is, this is, if a white boy is, is going, this is gross.

[00:33:04] And my stomach is hurting, looking at this, then I'm not overreacting.

[00:33:10] How are you guys handling your nervous systems?

[00:33:12] And how are, how does, like, how is your body handling?

[00:33:16] Do you guys ball your eyes out?

[00:33:18] Did you go into a state of numbness?

[00:33:20] Did you, what was your physical reaction to this whole thing over the last two days?

[00:33:25] Yeah, I, I was numb for the first couple of days.

[00:33:29] Like I didn't cry.

[00:33:31] I didn't feel anything.

[00:33:33] I saw the, I saw the map going red and I, like Scott said, I just, I couldn't do 2016

[00:33:42] again on my body and my nervous system.

[00:33:44] So I put on Brooklyn nine, nine, and I watched that while I went in and out of sleep and I

[00:33:50] would wake up and reload election results on my phone.

[00:33:54] And that was as much as I could do.

[00:33:56] It kept confirming that we are in fact headed in a very bad direction.

[00:34:01] And so once they called Pennsylvania, I was like, I got to go to bed.

[00:34:08] Like I'm, I, I can't even be in this half in and out anymore.

[00:34:11] So I, I went up to bed.

[00:34:15] I surprisingly got a little bit of sleep.

[00:34:18] I don't, I wasn't really expecting to sleep at all, but, but I did sleep some.

[00:34:22] Um, I, again, I think because I was just numb, like I was like, I, I don't feel, I don't feel

[00:34:27] anything.

[00:34:27] This is just like, these are the facts.

[00:34:29] And I went to school and I taught, I didn't teach very well that day, but I did my best.

[00:34:36] Um, and then it wasn't until like two days later I was texting.

[00:34:40] So like yesterday I was texting with my friend, my friend, Joe, he's gay.

[00:34:46] And we were just talking together about like new identities.

[00:34:50] Like I find myself in a new identity than I was in 2016.

[00:34:54] And it's like, I experienced 2016 as a woman and I experienced this one as a queer person,

[00:35:02] as a queer woman.

[00:35:03] And it's, it feels like I'm going through it all over again.

[00:35:07] Like I, I don't know.

[00:35:08] I did the initial like, wow, this is terrible to be a woman in a Trump world.

[00:35:13] Right.

[00:35:13] And we did that in 2016.

[00:35:14] And now I feel like there's something new to my identity that I have to like figure out

[00:35:19] how this fits into this, this America that I live in.

[00:35:24] And especially thinking about like all the work that we've done to like overcome this internalized

[00:35:30] homophobia that we have to then be like, oh my God, it's not just in the church.

[00:35:35] It's not just in myself.

[00:35:36] It's everywhere in this country.

[00:35:38] And what do we do with that?

[00:35:39] And how do I, I don't know, like how do I embrace who I am in a country that doesn't

[00:35:46] want me here?

[00:35:47] You know?

[00:35:48] Right.

[00:35:48] And I'm sure, I'm sure that like you feel some of this too, like Nate and Scott as Asian

[00:35:54] Americans or like queer people, women, anyone of color.

[00:35:59] It's like, we all feel this in a different, in a different way.

[00:36:02] And yeah, so anyway, I was, I was texting my friend Joe about that and that's when I started

[00:36:07] crying and then I cried for like 24 hours.

[00:36:10] So it was sort of like being numb and then let it all out.

[00:36:14] And now I'm just like, I'm going to sit with the grief for as long as I, as long as my body

[00:36:19] feels like it needs to.

[00:36:20] And when I feel like I can go to work, I'm like get to work for the country.

[00:36:26] Like I'm going to do that.

[00:36:27] But until then, I'm going to just like let myself be really sad and angry and confused

[00:36:33] and shocked and all the, all the feelings because, because they're not going anywhere.

[00:36:37] So we have to feel them.

[00:36:38] We have to process them.

[00:36:39] So yeah, that's, that's where my body is at the moment.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:44] Thanks for sharing that.

[00:36:45] I think for me, it was, it didn't hit right away.

[00:36:49] I think that, you know, that the numbness, that sense of despair kind of just was what,

[00:36:54] um, what I felt myself sitting in for a little while.

[00:36:57] I only got like a couple hours of sleep.

[00:36:59] Actually, you know what?

[00:37:00] Anxiety was where it was where my body was at.

[00:37:02] It was in this really incredibly high state of anxiety because I couldn't sleep.

[00:37:06] I think at, uh, at different points I, I dozed off and then I would wake up again

[00:37:11] and my heart rate would jump up.

[00:37:14] I wear a smartwatch and I, I wear it to sleep and I would look at it and my heart rates going

[00:37:18] up into 90 and I'm like, I'm in bed.

[00:37:20] Why am I at 90?

[00:37:22] Like, um, yeah, so I think I got, uh, about two and a half hours of sleep that night, went

[00:37:30] into work and it was heavy.

[00:37:32] You know, we had scheduled, uh, to bring in therapy dogs into the office and they were

[00:37:38] downstairs.

[00:37:39] So I took some pictures for, for, uh, social media and there was a girl that walked up to

[00:37:45] the, like saw the dog and she got excited.

[00:37:47] She's like, Oh my God, a doggy.

[00:37:50] And as soon as she said that she just fell to her knees and started bawling, I almost

[00:37:56] lost it.

[00:37:57] So I had to swallow.

[00:37:57] Cause I'm like, okay, no, I'm at work right now.

[00:37:59] You know, she's a student.

[00:38:00] She could do what she needs to, but like, I'm, let me, let me stay focused.

[00:38:03] But so I swallowed that down and it wasn't until after I got home and Gail called me and

[00:38:09] asked me, how are you?

[00:38:10] That's when it, when it hit.

[00:38:12] And I just, I broke down, uh, had a decent, like 20 minute session where I just couldn't,

[00:38:19] couldn't hold anything back anymore.

[00:38:21] But, um, I got a little sense of, you know, comfort from my former boss, uh, who, you know,

[00:38:30] I still work at the same place.

[00:38:31] So, um, he was wandering around the building and, uh, he just, he looked way just out of

[00:38:38] it.

[00:38:38] Like everybody in our building looked really out of it.

[00:38:41] And, you know, he said he went and talked to one of the deans who was really broken about

[00:38:48] the whole thing.

[00:38:48] And they sat together for a few minutes and then he came by my office and I just, you

[00:38:55] know, he's, he's a, an older gentleman and, uh, very distinguished.

[00:39:00] He's got this kind of air about him, but he said something to me that if it had come

[00:39:04] from anyone else, I probably would have challenged him on it.

[00:39:07] But I asked him like, what are your thoughts?

[00:39:08] What are your, you know, your words of, of encouragement, you know, in the midst of all

[00:39:12] of this?

[00:39:13] And he said, well, I don't have much, but I can say, you know, as a country, we came through

[00:39:23] it once before and I don't have a reason to believe that we can't again, even though all

[00:39:30] signs are pointing to this time will be a whole lot worse.

[00:39:33] And he said, I gained that encouragement just by looking around us.

[00:39:38] Like this, in this building, we are training the next generation of people who are going

[00:39:44] to take the fight to Trump.

[00:39:46] You know, like in the last few years, we had record admission of women to law school.

[00:39:52] The last, the last graduating class was the first time that our law school had a majority

[00:40:00] of women and non-white people graduate.

[00:40:04] So these are the lawyers that are entering, that are entering the field.

[00:40:08] So that's where he takes encouragement.

[00:40:11] Um, it's a pretty activist based.

[00:40:14] Yeah.

[00:40:15] Yeah.

[00:40:15] University law school.

[00:40:16] So that's, they've done a lot to challenge and push back over the years.

[00:40:20] You're in an environment that's sort of taking on this stuff.

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:24] Yeah.

[00:40:24] He, uh, he, he made a little quip after that.

[00:40:26] He's like, you know, we're doing good work here.

[00:40:28] This is what we're, uh, what we're moving towards.

[00:40:31] We, we've got great, great students.

[00:40:33] I'm really encouraged by what I see from them.

[00:40:35] And then he said, you know, we're doing important stuff.

[00:40:38] We're not, we're not selling pillows.

[00:40:43] I'm like, oh, you're funny, Rob.

[00:40:47] Um, but yeah, I guess for me, I've been in this weird sort of anxious state.

[00:40:52] There are a lot of things that I'm just not able to, uh, enjoy.

[00:40:58] Like I, I'm, I'm one of those people that tries to detach, you know, and I, uh, before

[00:41:03] I got on, uh, our zoom call with our friends to watch, you know, to watch the returns before

[00:41:09] anything was known, like, and I was still sort of riding that feeling of like, okay, I'm going

[00:41:14] to be cautiously optimistic about all of this.

[00:41:16] I didn't want to, like, I think something in me was like, yeah, I don't, you don't want

[00:41:21] to, you don't want to watch this.

[00:41:22] So I, I sat down and I watched, uh, Jurassic world dominion.

[00:41:28] It's just a pathetic movie, but Jurassic park was one of my favorite movies as a kid.

[00:41:32] So I like, you know, so I sat down and I watched it.

[00:41:34] Uh, I was been watching, you know, the bits of it here and there.

[00:41:38] And so I finished the movie and then I got on, uh, online with, uh, with our friends.

[00:41:44] And that was when I, I felt like I could finally put myself in that state.

[00:41:47] But then after everything went down, I find myself wanting to go into those places and distract

[00:41:52] myself and I'm trying, but it's just, I'm finding myself dissatisfied by the things that

[00:42:00] I normally would dive into.

[00:42:02] You know, my, my ADHD manifests in hyper-focusing in my little hobbies and my interests.

[00:42:08] And I just can't like, I, you know, I have no concentration either.

[00:42:14] I've noticed that my concentration levels have dropped so much.

[00:42:16] It, you know, and there's no, there's no baseball on TV now.

[00:42:21] So I'm, I'm a little, uh, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm trying to, to get into hockey, but the

[00:42:24] Habs are doing awful.

[00:42:26] And, uh, Oh, it looks like we lost Scott.

[00:42:28] Come back.

[00:42:29] Scott can come back.

[00:42:30] Cause I just made a baseball comment.

[00:42:32] He dismissed your baseball joke.

[00:42:35] Yeah.

[00:42:35] Oh, he's back.

[00:42:36] He's back.

[00:42:37] You missed Nate's baseball comment.

[00:42:39] He was very sad that.

[00:42:46] His phone was just like, that's it.

[00:42:48] We won the world.

[00:42:49] Yeah.

[00:42:50] It rejects Yankee talk.

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:53] Yeah.

[00:42:53] So, I mean, and it just isn't like, I'm, I'm trying to watch, you know, YouTube videos

[00:42:59] about, you know, how Mariona Rivera did what he did with that cutter.

[00:43:03] And I'm like, it's not, it's not enjoyable.

[00:43:05] I can't, I can't get into it.

[00:43:08] I can't, my brain is just not latching onto those things.

[00:43:11] I just, and like then when, when I noticed that my brain isn't latching onto those things,

[00:43:16] my anxiety ramps up and I can feel my, my heart jumping into my throat.

[00:43:21] Anyway, that's where I'm at.

[00:43:23] It's not going to make you feel any better, but as a Dodger fan who just won the world series,

[00:43:27] there's no joy anymore.

[00:43:29] Yeah.

[00:43:30] Yeah.

[00:43:31] You had it for like a day.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:33] It was a nice day.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:35] A couple of days.

[00:43:36] How is your system?

[00:43:37] If you want to respond, Scott, how have you been feeling emotionally since?

[00:43:41] All of this.

[00:43:42] How's the last three days?

[00:43:43] How's your system been responding to?

[00:43:45] Yeah.

[00:43:46] It's, so 2016, I definitely shed tears, but this time I'm just pissed.

[00:43:52] I'm, I'm cussing people out online.

[00:43:56] I'm ready to punch someone and I'm just ready to fight because I'm heartbroken.

[00:44:02] You know, I, I feel people are going to suffer.

[00:44:06] People are going to die because of this.

[00:44:08] And kind of like what Maggie was saying at the beginning, I'm in a place of privilege.

[00:44:12] I live in California.

[00:44:14] Oh, and a quick note, the, I have a friend who works in the California attorney general's

[00:44:18] office.

[00:44:19] She's like a lead attorney.

[00:44:21] And she was over at my house, uh, Wednesday and she had to take a work call on her computer.

[00:44:27] And I kind of eavesdropped, but it was comforting because they have plans in place to fight Trump

[00:44:34] at every step already.

[00:44:36] And they, they, they've studied 2025, probably 2025 and they're all pissed and they're all

[00:44:42] terrified, but they're like, we're ready for this.

[00:44:45] Yeah.

[00:44:45] And so that made me feel good.

[00:44:47] And that kind of led me to be, yeah, I'm going to fight too.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:50] Fuck this country.

[00:44:51] I have no hope.

[00:44:52] There's a lot of blue state leaders that have been issuing statements and, and holding press

[00:44:57] conferences going, we're ready.

[00:44:58] We're ready for this.

[00:44:59] We're, we're going to protect our people.

[00:45:02] Yeah.

[00:45:03] I mean, it's still going to suck.

[00:45:04] Of course that doesn't do anything for us down here in red States, but glad y'all have

[00:45:08] that.

[00:45:08] Yeah.

[00:45:09] Well, you can come over here.

[00:45:12] Um, but yeah, so I'm just, I'm just, I think I blew past tears and crying this time to just

[00:45:19] like, uh, yeah, we just have to fuck shit up.

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:23] It's going to be bad.

[00:45:25] You know, I've got former, I've only have a few former students who are Christian

[00:45:29] he still on my Facebook feed.

[00:45:31] Cause I got rid of all of them back like 10, 15 years ago, but some of them were posting

[00:45:36] the only praise God and shit.

[00:45:38] You know?

[00:45:39] And this one kid, he's not a kid.

[00:45:41] He's like 35 now.

[00:45:42] But, um, he responded to me and he's like, Hey man, I love you.

[00:45:47] And, um, I still remember the poems that you had us read.

[00:45:51] And then I, you know, you required us to write some poetry and I, and I still have it.

[00:45:55] And I just want you to know I love you.

[00:45:57] And I was like, you know, if you still have those poems, burn them because you live, you

[00:46:03] didn't learn shit from me.

[00:46:05] If you voted for Trump, none of that made any difference in your life because that is

[00:46:12] completely contrary to the art and beauty and truth that I was trying to teach you.

[00:46:17] So yeah, burn those poems.

[00:46:20] Go fuck yourself.

[00:46:21] I don't care if you love me.

[00:46:24] How did he respond to that?

[00:46:26] He sent me this long message, like begging me to like meet with him and talk with him

[00:46:30] and I haven't responded.

[00:46:31] I'm just going to excuse for a while.

[00:46:33] No.

[00:46:33] He wants coffee with you.

[00:46:36] Exactly.

[00:46:38] Yeah.

[00:46:40] I'm not going to get coffee.

[00:46:42] Something, uh, Maggie, that you, uh, that you were, um, talking about in your own journey

[00:46:47] that, that I was thinking about and then forgot to even mention it, but yeah, the difference

[00:46:52] between 2016 and now and who I am as a person and how I'm relating to the election of Trump

[00:47:00] then versus now, you know, aside from the fact that we, you know, we know from experience now

[00:47:05] versus we had theories, a lot of which were born out back then.

[00:47:11] But I think for me, who I was back then was someone who had not fully embraced my racial

[00:47:19] identity and what that meant here in this country.

[00:47:22] Uh, I was still sort of in process with a lot of that.

[00:47:26] Uh, not that I'm not still in process now, but it was, it was something that

[00:47:29] hadn't really been unlocked.

[00:47:31] And honestly, it wasn't until the pandemic that that really became front.

[00:47:36] What does it mean to be Asian American was sort of the, the, the, the question that then

[00:47:40] I was faced with during the pandemic.

[00:47:42] But, you know, I hadn't been, I hadn't been met with that.

[00:47:44] And maybe that just says something about the privilege that I've experienced throughout

[00:47:47] my life or, or maybe even just, you know, a trauma response to hiding and suppressing

[00:47:52] my, my racial identity for, for so long.

[00:47:54] And then the other thing too, is now, you know, in, in, in process, you know, when I

[00:48:00] talked on your podcast, Maggie, about my own, um, sexual identity and as a queer person now

[00:48:06] had, now I have to process what this means to me.

[00:48:08] What, what do I, do I, do I like make those moves to come out in this environment outside

[00:48:15] of our little, you know, exvangelical podcasting world?

[00:48:18] Or do I just, are, are you people the only ones that I, that, that I, uh, share that aspect

[00:48:24] of my identity with, you know, who, um, who am I in the face of this?

[00:48:28] Do I just go back into these, these spaces with the kind of energy that I did following 2016,

[00:48:35] or am I just too tired and am I only going to be applauding the, the quote unquote young

[00:48:40] ones who, who do have the energy?

[00:48:42] I don't know.

[00:48:43] I don't know what this is going to look like.

[00:48:44] I just have more questions.

[00:48:45] Yeah.

[00:48:46] Nate, I, I feel that so much.

[00:48:48] I found myself in the last couple of days saying like, that I have this feeling, not

[00:48:52] that this, I don't want this to be true, but that I have this feeling like, well, I'm

[00:48:56] glad I haven't come out to too many people because now I can just put it back in a box and

[00:49:00] I don't have to like embrace this part of me, but that's not, that's not how I want

[00:49:06] to be.

[00:49:06] That's not, you know, what we want for everyone else.

[00:49:09] That's not what I want for everyone else.

[00:49:10] Exactly.

[00:49:11] Um, and so like, of course I don't want to do that, but there is this piece of me that's

[00:49:16] like, I'll just, I'll just put it back in a box.

[00:49:19] I can, I haven't taken it out too far anyway, so that's fine.

[00:49:22] So yeah, I, I feel that with you and I'm sure other people out there feel that too.

[00:49:27] And, and, you know, to what you were saying about your Asian American identity and your,

[00:49:32] your Asian identity, Nate, I was thinking about you because we talked about that at the end

[00:49:37] of our episode together.

[00:49:40] And that's something for you that has been, you know, you've embraced this part of yourself

[00:49:45] more since 2016.

[00:49:47] And so it's this, it's not that it wasn't there before, but it, but it's there for you

[00:49:52] in a new way.

[00:49:52] And so, yeah, I've been, I've been thinking about you and wondering how that's feeling

[00:49:58] for you this time around because it's, cause it is new for you.

[00:50:02] Yeah.

[00:50:03] I think, um, given everything that happened during the pandemic, during the previous Trump

[00:50:09] administration, I think there is a part of me that has that, like, it's weird.

[00:50:13] Cause like, I, I have this, this renewed vigor, this sense of, um, I, I'm not, I'm like, like

[00:50:20] Scott, you know, I'm, I'm going to go, you know, Jet Li on someone's ass, but, um, uh,

[00:50:27] I, I won't because I, I stopped taking karate when I was in fifth grade.

[00:50:31] So, um, but I, I don't know.

[00:50:36] Uh, I think as far as my, my Asian identity, I think the other thing too, is like, I'm, I'm

[00:50:42] frustrated with my fellow Asian Americans as well.

[00:50:46] Sure.

[00:50:47] By and large, uh, you know, as a, as a voting block, we voted for Harris, but that, that

[00:50:54] percentage slipped, you know?

[00:50:56] And I want to talk to those 4% that that's switched over.

[00:50:59] Where, where are you?

[00:51:00] Like we, what happened?

[00:51:03] Yeah.

[00:51:04] Like how, how, after everything that went, that went down after Kung flu and Chinese virus,

[00:51:09] after the vilifying of Asian people, how, like, what, what was it here?

[00:51:16] What was it about Trump this time?

[00:51:19] Oh man.

[00:51:19] I saw Scott getting into it with another Asian on, on his wall today.

[00:51:23] What is it about Harris?

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:26] That's the other thing.

[00:51:26] That's actually, yeah.

[00:51:27] That's a better question.

[00:51:28] Scott, what is it about Harris?

[00:51:29] Harris.

[00:51:30] Couldn't get behind because she's South Asian.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:34] And I, I think, you know, we were talking earlier about, well, and then I want to come

[00:51:38] back to being mad at our, cause I'm, I'm really mad at white women in this too.

[00:51:41] Oh, please, please, please.

[00:51:41] So I want to, I want to, I want to hold that and come back to that.

[00:51:47] But I think it's really important.

[00:51:48] We were talking about like where to place the blame and we want to try to figure it out.

[00:51:52] And I think that we have to acknowledge that the only thing that Harris really did wrong

[00:51:59] was being a woman and was being black because America hates black women.

[00:52:05] We don't like women.

[00:52:06] We don't like black people and we really hate black women.

[00:52:09] And I say, we as America, not, not me, not us.

[00:52:12] Like I, I'm, you know, to make that clear.

[00:52:15] So nobody pulls that out of context.

[00:52:16] Um, but I think it's like, at least in 2016, we could say, well, Hillary won the popular

[00:52:24] vote.

[00:52:24] So the people, the people did speak, but it's the electoral college that, you know, made

[00:52:28] it so that she didn't win, whatever.

[00:52:30] Trump won the popular vote.

[00:52:32] Like we don't even have that to stand on.

[00:52:34] And I think it's like, I realized that there are bigger, you know, geopolitical things that

[00:52:39] are happening.

[00:52:39] There is a genocide happening that many people like didn't vote for her because of that.

[00:52:44] I think, but, but I think when it comes down to it, she didn't get as many votes because

[00:52:49] she's black and Asian and a woman.

[00:52:52] And like, we don't, we, we don't like black people.

[00:52:55] We don't like women and we can't see Asian Americans like to what you were saying on my

[00:52:59] podcast, Nate.

[00:52:59] So anyway, I think it's just really important.

[00:53:01] We want to find the blame, but I think that America's pretty racist and sexist and that's

[00:53:08] where the blame is.

[00:53:09] And absolutely.

[00:53:10] Yeah.

[00:53:10] I want to, I've been wanting to jump in on the white woman comment.

[00:53:12] So I'm just, I was looking for the segue in because when we mentioned, and we're, we're

[00:53:17] three white women on this, on this chat.

[00:53:19] Yes.

[00:53:20] And the reality is we brought up that they lot, the minority communities had a role in

[00:53:25] this, this was, you know, a comment that we, we've, we've, we're talking.

[00:53:29] Okay.

[00:53:29] But like, let's be real.

[00:53:31] Let's be real about who made the difference in this election.

[00:53:33] It was white people.

[00:53:34] For sure.

[00:53:34] It was totally white people and white women, majority voting against our own interests.

[00:53:41] And look, the needle may have moved in other communities a little, but the fact that we

[00:53:47] cannot convince our sisters, our moms, our grandmas, our, our brothers, our family members,

[00:53:53] the fact that they have watched, I think this is where my head is at.

[00:53:58] So I'm, I'm coming into the U S as, as a Canadian who's has assumed citizenship last

[00:54:03] year.

[00:54:03] And I'm like, I don't understand this identity, this new identity marker I'm going to carry

[00:54:07] because white women are voting against themselves.

[00:54:10] And I don't understand.

[00:54:11] I'm trying to, I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

[00:54:13] Like, how does this, how does this happen?

[00:54:15] How does, what is going on?

[00:54:17] And I'm still, I'm still trying to process that we have such, like.

[00:54:23] We hate each other.

[00:54:24] We genuinely do as women.

[00:54:27] We hate each other.

[00:54:28] And, and we really genuinely, and I say we, again, I don't hate my fellow women, but I

[00:54:35] understand internalized misogyny and I understand the way that it works and the idea that we

[00:54:43] feel safer when we keep other women from usurping power.

[00:54:49] We just do.

[00:54:51] It's all the way down into our DNA.

[00:54:53] We feel safer when we prop up structures of power and white women have been doing this

[00:55:01] solidly since the beginning.

[00:55:04] We, we do this.

[00:55:05] We, our grandmothers did this.

[00:55:07] Our, our mothers did this.

[00:55:09] Our great grandmothers did this.

[00:55:11] They prop up men and, and structures of patriarchy to keep ourselves safe.

[00:55:16] And I'm trying to hold some sort of compassion for that because it is at this point, I, I feel

[00:55:24] like it's part of the, the, the trauma we carry in our bones from, from abuse from men,

[00:55:30] from, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of this.

[00:55:35] We have to individually deconstruct it.

[00:55:38] And I've been hard at work at that in myself.

[00:55:40] I've been hard at work at that with my daughters.

[00:55:42] I've been hard at work with that, with my mother.

[00:55:46] I've spent hours trying to talk this through with her.

[00:55:49] And the, what the comes back every time is these women are all the way down into their

[00:55:56] bones, terrified of not propping up men.

[00:56:01] If they don't prop up men, the violence that they will experience.

[00:56:05] And it's, it's a real threat.

[00:56:07] It is something they are afraid of.

[00:56:08] And I think women all over are afraid of the men in their lives, not thinking that they

[00:56:16] have been propped up properly, the way that they feel they are entitled to.

[00:56:20] To back you up, I think the advertisements that were coming out during the election with

[00:56:24] women secretly looking at each other and those, Hey, you can vote however you want.

[00:56:30] And your husband doesn't need to know in the ballot.

[00:56:32] Like the fact that these advertisements were coming through and were being shared around so,

[00:56:36] so much.

[00:56:37] Right.

[00:56:38] And the backlash to them, the backlash to them shows us a lot that men were like, this is

[00:56:44] cheating.

[00:56:45] They were literally saying that women were cheating on them.

[00:56:49] It's the same thing.

[00:56:49] They didn't vote the way they were being told to vote.

[00:56:51] It was interesting to watch that and to, it really backed up.

[00:56:54] It backs up the point that you're making Jessica about the amount of women that are in fear

[00:56:58] of their own safety.

[00:57:00] I know, I look, I know as a, as a woman in Canada who had a conservative ex who I was married

[00:57:06] to at one point, what it was like to be verbally, like it got brought up all the time that I

[00:57:11] voted for the wrong person and making fun of it.

[00:57:14] And yeah.

[00:57:14] And even if it wasn't directly him saying it to me, it was like saying it around me or online

[00:57:19] or like kind of letting me know that I was propping up the wrong side and I wasn't voting

[00:57:23] the way he, he wanted me to vote.

[00:57:25] And he, there are men that are way more violent and controlling than the situation that I was

[00:57:31] in and seeing those advertisements and watching how men responded to the idea that women were

[00:57:35] not siding with who they wanted was frightening to just see in front of me and realize that's

[00:57:42] a thing.

[00:57:42] Well, and I want to make it clear that there's for the vast majority of these women who felt

[00:57:48] like this, this core fear, they actually aren't going to experience more violence personally

[00:57:57] themselves if they were to have, have rooted this out and worked this through.

[00:58:03] Because those of us that do, those of us that work this through this deeply internalized

[00:58:09] misogyny, this, this fear that it's just like deep in there, it's not conscious.

[00:58:14] You're not thinking about it consciously.

[00:58:16] You're experiencing it in your nervous system.

[00:58:19] Once we root it out, we realize that once we push back against structures of power, things

[00:58:25] change and it gets better.

[00:58:27] But we have to do that work first of calming our nervous system, of teaching ourselves that

[00:58:34] we have power in ourselves that when we exercise it, we are actually safer.

[00:58:41] When we actually take care of other women, when we actually vote in the vulnerable women's

[00:58:47] best interest, because a lot of us are actually not vulnerable.

[00:58:51] We're not.

[00:58:52] And that is the thing that makes us angry.

[00:58:55] And it needs to be mentioned, 92% of black women, the highest.

[00:59:01] Look, I'm just going to say it.

[00:59:03] They've done the work.

[00:59:03] If I need to look at one demographic and say, how do they think?

[00:59:08] Because this is going to tell me, this is going to be a demographic that's going to help

[00:59:11] guide me in my thought process about who the vulnerable people are and which party is going

[00:59:16] to be safest for vulnerable people.

[00:59:19] It's black women that I'm going to turn to.

[00:59:20] There is no other group that I'm going to look at and go, they have carried the country.

[00:59:24] They have saved the country.

[00:59:26] They have literally fought for everyone nonstop.

[00:59:28] We have built this on their backs.

[00:59:31] There is no group that is a monolith, but 92% is a solid resentment.

[00:59:37] And I couldn't invite one of my black friends on this podcast because I'm like, you guys

[00:59:43] have done enough.

[00:59:44] You guys have literally done enough for us.

[00:59:46] It's time for us to do the work that they have done.

[00:59:48] They've gone before us.

[00:59:49] They've done it.

[00:59:50] They've worked so hard.

[00:59:52] I just felt like we already said this and did this in 2016.

[00:59:57] And I was like, oh my God, now we realize we were idiots.

[01:00:00] And now we can, we realize the work we need to do and we're going to do the work.

[01:00:05] And I thought we were, I just, I thought we were convincing our family and friends and

[01:00:11] the people we went to church with so long ago.

[01:00:13] Like I thought we were making some change.

[01:00:16] I thought people were leaving church.

[01:00:17] I thought young people were rising up.

[01:00:19] And yet here we are.

[01:00:21] And how?

[01:00:22] So I think this is, this is the, I had this question and I was talking with Nate in bed

[01:00:27] this morning about this.

[01:00:28] When I woke up, I was like the political question I have, because there's a big piece of me that

[01:00:32] is grappling with the idea that you're, we're in a bad marriage.

[01:00:37] And, um, I was in a 20 year marriage that was really harmful for me.

[01:00:41] And I did that.

[01:00:42] It's not you.

[01:00:43] It's me.

[01:00:43] Meaning the only person I can change is me.

[01:00:45] So let me figure out how I, what I can compromise, what I can do, pray more, submit,

[01:00:52] more, whatever it needs to be to make this work.

[01:00:54] And I hung on for 20 years inside a toxic relationship because I always was taught, you look at yourself

[01:00:59] first, be the change you want to see in the world, right?

[01:01:01] Like fix yourself first.

[01:01:03] But there comes a point where you look at it and you go, actually, the only way that I stay

[01:01:08] here is if I keep cutting off pieces of who I am, the good pieces of who I am.

[01:01:13] The only way this works is if I keep taking the good things about me and putting them aside

[01:01:17] and cutting them off to make you happy so that you can control.

[01:01:19] And I feel like a lot of white women were in that situation with the people around us where it's

[01:01:25] like, we've had a lot of years to talk and have these conversations and have done the work of

[01:01:30] trying to see girls, come on, family members, look, look at this.

[01:01:33] And, and, and a lot of us are still not at that.

[01:01:36] I'm watching on Facebook, my community, my people that I know, I'm watching people plan to flee from

[01:01:42] red States for the sake of their trans kids.

[01:01:44] I'm watching people who are in queer relationships in red States, trying to flee people from Idaho,

[01:01:49] people from Texas.

[01:01:50] I've been seeing this in my feed, people scared.

[01:01:52] And then I'm also watching people being like, I am done having this conversation with, I,

[01:01:58] I put up an unfriend me if you voted for Trump and, and that conversation around, do we just

[01:02:03] be like, I can't debate with you anymore about this?

[01:02:08] Like I have done the work.

[01:02:09] I have sat with you.

[01:02:11] I have had conversations with you.

[01:02:12] You clearly don't care.

[01:02:14] Like I think of my 20 year marriage and I'm like, how much time did I waste cutting off

[01:02:19] me when there was no desire for growth or change or movement?

[01:02:22] None.

[01:02:23] And I think a lot of people aren't there yet.

[01:02:25] So that was a conversation I was having when I'm like, I'm watching people say, make an

[01:02:28] effort.

[01:02:29] We need to stay connected with people.

[01:02:30] We need to, we need to be able to convince and change.

[01:02:33] And I'm like, but what, where's that line where you're just like, we are done attempting

[01:02:37] this.

[01:02:38] We're going to focus on our own.

[01:02:39] Now we're going to focus on caring for each other because you guys are clearly just interested

[01:02:43] in harming and causing harm and fueling hatred.

[01:02:45] And like these conversations are not working and you, you had some good thoughts.

[01:02:49] You were like, we were having that.

[01:02:51] What do you do?

[01:02:51] Do you stay engaged?

[01:02:52] Do you not stay engaged?

[01:02:53] I think, you know, I liked what you had to say to me.

[01:02:57] We were, you're looking at your own family.

[01:02:59] You were kind of pulling from that as thoughts on.

[01:03:01] And I think, yeah, I think for, for me, I'm, uh, I'm looking at this as, you know, now

[01:03:08] it's, it's going to be case by case basis.

[01:03:09] And, and each of you assess how much work you've already put in, how much work you think

[01:03:15] you're willing to do.

[01:03:16] But to ask us as a group, when we've done this already for eight years, at least, you

[01:03:23] know, some of us even more, I think ultimately, you know, we, we need to take a look at our,

[01:03:29] ourselves and our relationships and what you are capable of doing and what you think you

[01:03:34] have.

[01:03:34] If you have put in effort, then maybe it's time for you to walk away and just take care

[01:03:39] of yourself and your community.

[01:03:42] Hang out.

[01:03:42] Yeah.

[01:03:42] Hang out with the people who, who are out here.

[01:03:46] Needing support.

[01:03:46] Yeah.

[01:03:47] Needing support and caring for each other.

[01:03:48] Exactly.

[01:03:49] And then there are those of you who maybe upon self-reflection, you realize when I haven't

[01:03:53] had conversations, I just walked, I just walked away because I saw my friends going over

[01:03:59] there and I felt angry too, but I didn't actually try to talk to my mom, my dad, my, you

[01:04:03] know, my, my relatives, whoever I didn't do that.

[01:04:06] Then maybe because you didn't have those conversations, those people might be waiting

[01:04:11] for you, you know, unconsciously waiting for you to give them permission to start learning.

[01:04:17] Maybe for some of us we've made attempts, but in the past we were just straight up angry.

[01:04:22] And this time those relationships have evolved in those people on the other side.

[01:04:26] Our dynamic with them has shifted and changed as we've become more, uh, well-versed or well,

[01:04:35] you know, been able to art become a more able to articulate our position better.

[01:04:38] Maybe we can revisit some of those conversations, but I think ultimately this is really up to

[01:04:42] you as individuals.

[01:04:43] individuals and for anyone out there to say, Hey, we all need to get back to the table.

[01:04:49] We need to listen to what the other side has to say.

[01:04:51] No, I don't think we can make blanket statements like that anymore.

[01:04:54] I think we are way, way past all of that.

[01:04:57] I think ultimately, again, it is really entirely up to each individual and what they think they're,

[01:05:03] they're capable of.

[01:05:04] I appreciated that.

[01:05:05] Cause I was hearing people be like, and I was feeling this just cut, cut them off.

[01:05:10] Like you don't sit at the table at Nazis.

[01:05:13] I'm sorry.

[01:05:13] There comes a point where you go, like you're, you've stated clearly what your position is

[01:05:18] and that you don't want to change.

[01:05:20] And we've had these conversations and it's over time.

[01:05:22] It's we're past the discussion time.

[01:05:24] I don't want to engage this.

[01:05:24] I don't need this.

[01:05:25] Like Scott unfriending all the people in the past.

[01:05:27] I've done that.

[01:05:28] I've done the purge.

[01:05:29] I've been like, I can't, this is not helpful in my life.

[01:05:31] And then I've watched other people talk about engagement.

[01:05:34] And I really like what you were saying, because I think, I think we do need to ask the question

[01:05:39] of where we are located on this process of have we done, have we done anything beforehand

[01:05:43] before deciding their person is unwilling to listen?

[01:05:47] Have we had the conversations?

[01:05:48] Because it's, there is no formula.

[01:05:50] It isn't cut everyone off or stay engaged.

[01:05:53] It is going to be which people and what have you done?

[01:05:55] And I think as an ex-evangelical community, and I'm going to speak to that because that's

[01:05:59] where we're all, all of our podcasts touch on a lot of that.

[01:06:01] But I think a lot of us, when we walked out of church, we had that be the change you want

[01:06:05] to see in your church moments where we were like speaking out, trying to make things more

[01:06:11] egalitarian, trying to challenge power structures, trying to point out this thing and that thing

[01:06:15] and see if we could change things from within.

[01:06:19] And we gravitated to people on bloggers, whatever, that were trying to do that.

[01:06:23] And we were trying to share their work and be like, guys, look at this, check this

[01:06:26] out. And we made an attempt before we left to, when people saw us disappear, hopefully

[01:06:32] they didn't go, what happened?

[01:06:33] They went, oh, I saw them constantly trying to get people's attention about this probably

[01:06:39] what drove them away.

[01:06:40] That's why they're not here.

[01:06:41] It's not, rather than just fleeing and no one knew what happened.

[01:06:45] And like, I do think there is an effort everyone needs to try and make.

[01:06:49] If you love your community, if this is your community that you've been in for years and

[01:06:53] years, whether it's your family or church community, it makes sense that on your way

[01:06:56] out before you decide it's not worth it for the people you love and care about that you

[01:07:01] would try and have and do something about it and try and make a change.

[01:07:05] But there does come a point where all of us, I think that we're, none of us are in church

[01:07:08] where we said to ourselves, you know what?

[01:07:11] We did that.

[01:07:12] We actually did as much as we could do emotionally, mentally.

[01:07:16] We put in the talks and we know that the best thing we could do for our community from here

[01:07:21] is actually to walk away from it.

[01:07:23] The best thing we could do for these people from this point is for them to see that we can't

[01:07:27] support it anymore.

[01:07:28] That like, we're not going to invest our time and energy here because it's not wanted and

[01:07:33] it's not helpful here.

[01:07:34] And the shock of watching people walk out for them is maybe the only thing they're going

[01:07:38] to hear at this point from us that can make them even possibly consider anything.

[01:07:44] And they're not, maybe they're still not ready, but it is the only last thing.

[01:07:47] That's the last statement we can make to them.

[01:07:49] So I think leaving the evangelical community and the putting in the work before you leave

[01:07:54] and then being like, there's a point where you got to just walk away.

[01:07:58] I think that's the question or that's the answer I'm coming to from my conversation with

[01:08:03] you this morning.

[01:08:03] It was just sort of like, what do we do?

[01:08:05] Do we just focus on our community needs us?

[01:08:08] Our community is hurting.

[01:08:09] I'm watching people, I'm watching people beg trans people not to de-transition or take

[01:08:15] their lives even.

[01:08:16] And that's disgusting and it's heartbreaking.

[01:08:17] And it's like, we need to support each other.

[01:08:20] So pouring all the effort into people who don't, who are gloating and like, ha ha, F you, you

[01:08:25] know, we won.

[01:08:26] Like, what's that going to accomplish at this point?

[01:08:29] Their hatred is so loud and proud.

[01:08:31] And we had the conversations before there's no point.

[01:08:33] But for the ones who are like, oh, actually I've never had a conversation with my sister.

[01:08:38] Actually, I've never had a conversation with my mom about this.

[01:08:41] Oh, I assumed it's going to go bad.

[01:08:42] So I don't even bother.

[01:08:43] Yeah.

[01:08:44] I don't know.

[01:08:45] Maybe, maybe that's the, that's, that's the place where you maybe want to start before

[01:08:48] you start shutting everything down at that point.

[01:08:51] And we all remember 2016 when, okay, Trump wins.

[01:08:57] And then there was all these things, like basically shaming us progressive people.

[01:09:02] Like you're all in your little bubbles.

[01:09:03] You need to reach out across and like get to know why these people are so.

[01:09:06] And, okay.

[01:09:08] So we did that.

[01:09:08] And now, and then they just hit us again.

[01:09:11] Like, no, fuck you.

[01:09:12] Like we reached out.

[01:09:14] We've tried to figure out why you're so unhappy as rural white people and why you hate us.

[01:09:20] Oh, and they kept saying, can't you just be, be respectful of the president?

[01:09:24] Like, why can't you just be respectful?

[01:09:26] You know, respectful of the, oh, Scott, you had a, had an argument.

[01:09:29] Well, that guy's a weirdo.

[01:09:30] He's like this Japanese old guy who says, he's very like Zen.

[01:09:34] He's saying we need to respect the outcome.

[01:09:36] And I'm like, no, fuck the outcome.

[01:09:37] Yeah.

[01:09:37] And fuck this.

[01:09:38] I saw that even on your wall, there were other Asians jumping in.

[01:09:42] No, I don't even know who the fuck that guy is.

[01:09:44] I go about to unfriend him, but I kind of want to yell at him some more.

[01:09:48] Have fun.

[01:09:49] My, my, my, yeah.

[01:09:50] I'm just beating on him.

[01:09:51] It started all over again.

[01:09:53] Yeah.

[01:09:54] We're back.

[01:09:56] It was nice to see a community reaching out to their own.

[01:09:59] And I feel like this is, I don't, I'm not taking it well when men are going white women,

[01:10:05] black women can tell me whatever they want.

[01:10:07] And I'm listening and I'm here to listen to their shit.

[01:10:09] Like I'm going to, I'm going to sit and I'm going to shut up.

[01:10:11] Yeah.

[01:10:11] Cause they did their job.

[01:10:13] They did.

[01:10:13] But like any men that want to go women, women, women, women, women, women.

[01:10:18] I'm like, it's hard.

[01:10:20] It's a, it's a hard, it's a hard.

[01:10:21] It goes like this.

[01:10:22] Yes.

[01:10:22] The biggest group that voted for Trump is men, white men.

[01:10:27] Yeah.

[01:10:28] The next group is white women and so on.

[01:10:31] And it goes down like that.

[01:10:32] But the biggest and quite a bit bigger than the white women is white men.

[01:10:37] So, and the ones who have the power and the ones who have the ability to threaten, to

[01:10:42] threaten the safety of others.

[01:10:44] Yeah.

[01:10:44] Yeah.

[01:10:45] They can kiss my ass.

[01:10:47] Yeah.

[01:10:47] Yeah.

[01:10:47] So I, I do appreciate watching people address their own.

[01:10:50] And so my encouragement to white women is continue to take on other white women, like continue

[01:10:55] to, to, to tackle your own internal misogyny.

[01:10:59] I love the stuff that you had to say, Jessica.

[01:11:01] Thanks.

[01:11:01] I think it's some good words for us to listen to about rooting it out of us.

[01:11:06] And hopefully that gives permission for other women watching.

[01:11:08] I think, uh, so I've had, I don't know if any, this is a question I had for all of you.

[01:11:12] Have you had evangelicals reaching Scott?

[01:11:14] You said you had one reaching out to you.

[01:11:16] I have had evangelicals liking my stories who are from unaffirming churches and they're

[01:11:21] liking my posts right after election about how I'm, you know, we can agree to disagree

[01:11:26] on cookies or coffee or whatever, but we're not going to do this with racism.

[01:11:30] We're not gonna do this with homophobia.

[01:11:31] And they're liking my stuff.

[01:11:32] And I'm like, wait a second, you're still part of that church.

[01:11:35] I didn't even write back, but I'm like, this is hilarious.

[01:11:38] This has gotta be a joke, but it's like that guilt of like knowing internally you're backing

[01:11:43] up these systems that are harming people.

[01:11:45] And you don't want to admit you haven't taken a stand against Trump personally.

[01:11:48] And your, your family that you love is all Trump and you're in a church that supports

[01:11:53] Trump.

[01:11:53] And now you're going to show me that you're going to see you're one of the good ones because

[01:11:58] you liked my story about this.

[01:12:00] And I'm like, oh, really though?

[01:12:02] Like the amount of reaching out on, on these things from people still evolved in the evangelicals

[01:12:06] I get where that's the homophobia is like, it's there all the time.

[01:12:10] I just, I don't even know.

[01:12:12] It's, it makes me angry when you guys are talking about wanting to punch someone.

[01:12:16] I like, I feel the anger in me just rising up and I'm like, no, yeah, no, no.

[01:12:21] Get, leave that place.

[01:12:22] Like get out, get out.

[01:12:25] Yeah.

[01:12:25] You want to support these statements of solidarity with these marginalized communities,

[01:12:29] but you're standing in solidarity with an organization that's harming these marginalized

[01:12:33] communities that you claim to be in, you know, agreement that they, that, you know.

[01:12:38] If you're from Hillsong, don't like my stories.

[01:12:41] Just don't.

[01:12:41] I think the thing that is so hard for me is this, this idea that they're like a very condescending

[01:12:48] attitude that I'm getting from all of the pages that I see conservatives on is this, well,

[01:12:56] you may be upset, but I am actually taking care of you.

[01:12:59] I am actually looking out for your best interest.

[01:13:02] I actually voted for the guy that's going to make things better.

[01:13:04] So you'll thank me later.

[01:13:06] And I just feel like screaming because this cognitive dissonance is too loud for me.

[01:13:13] I can't take it.

[01:13:14] I saw someone posting that groceries were cheaper already.

[01:13:17] I'm like, he's not, he hasn't even taken power.

[01:13:19] Like this is all in your brain.

[01:13:21] Like you have, this is all in your brain.

[01:13:22] Forget cognitive dissonance.

[01:13:23] You're living in your imaginary world.

[01:13:25] And like, how do I even talk to you?

[01:13:26] And again, if they are, if they are, it's because corporations are banking on the fact that

[01:13:32] Trump is going to bump up their bottom line.

[01:13:35] Like they're going to get more money and they're going to, they're going to have record profits.

[01:13:39] And so they're like, woohoo, but that is not solving the problem that caused us to get here

[01:13:45] in the first place, which is that they are allowed to have profits that are insane.

[01:13:50] So anyway, capitalism is my, one of my new pet peeves, but my new big, big, big ones.

[01:13:57] I don't know how we get people to understand that trying to become the billionaire is not

[01:14:01] attainable, that the more billionaires are rising, that more working class is suffering.

[01:14:07] The fact that they're super PACs, do you know, do you guys realize how many billions were invested

[01:14:10] in this election compared to previous billions were invested into marketing?

[01:14:15] How many anti-trans commercials were running nonstop for like such a small group of people,

[01:14:20] how much money was poured into hating one tiny little community that's not impacting anyone's

[01:14:24] life?

[01:14:25] Just to drive up here.

[01:14:25] I was going to say that earlier is the amount of, of effort that we think we've put into

[01:14:30] talking about internalized misogyny, talking about to white women about how to deconstruct,

[01:14:37] that same amount of effort we've been putting in.

[01:14:39] They have launched a counter campaign of anti-feminism and it is working.

[01:14:44] The trad wife movement is very popular amongst women, my daughter's age, these 25, 22 to 25

[01:14:53] year olds are just eating this up.

[01:14:56] Like it's going out of style.

[01:14:58] It's so interesting, I guess, cause we're like, I, I'm never in places in the country

[01:15:04] that, that are even remotely interested in the, the trad wife movement.

[01:15:09] I mean, like.

[01:15:09] These are not the young women in your life.

[01:15:10] You're female coworkers.

[01:15:12] I'm female in my forties.

[01:15:14] So I'm on TikTok and I have worked and worked and worked at my algorithm, right?

[01:15:17] I, I watched very specific things.

[01:15:19] I click on very specific.

[01:15:20] I follow very specific people.

[01:15:22] And at least once a day, I get pushed to watch Ballerina Farms.

[01:15:27] I don't know what that is.

[01:15:29] Oh my God.

[01:15:30] Gail, look it up.

[01:15:31] It's terrible.

[01:15:31] You don't know who Ballerina Farms is?

[01:15:33] I don't want to watch this.

[01:15:34] I'm guessing.

[01:15:35] No, I don't think I want to know from watching the two of your faces.

[01:15:38] I'm like, it's, I, it's huge.

[01:15:40] It's huge news.

[01:15:41] And, and yeah, I, I think that's why it ends up in my feed is I, I wanted to find out

[01:15:45] what was going on and I went and watched some and, uh, but she is a, uh, Mormon wife who

[01:15:51] is, uh, Miss America, Miss USA or what it misses America.

[01:15:55] Anyway, beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, uh, Juilliard trained ballerina who, um, married

[01:16:01] young and started having babies immediately.

[01:16:03] She was one of the only ballerinas at Juilliard at the time that was pregnant.

[01:16:08] I think in the history of the school until she dropped out, of course.

[01:16:12] And now they have what?

[01:16:13] Eight, eight little children.

[01:16:15] I can't keep track.

[01:16:16] Seven.

[01:16:16] I can't keep track.

[01:16:17] She's probably pregnant again, but she's constantly having, and they're all little.

[01:16:20] They're under the age of 10.

[01:16:21] And they-

[01:16:22] It's like the new Duggard poster people?

[01:16:23] Is this what this is?

[01:16:24] Yes, but she is stunningly beautiful.

[01:16:27] They have a big ranch in Utah.

[01:16:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:31] Chickens, cows.

[01:16:32] And she claims this is like what she wants to be doing, what she, like this is her choice,

[01:16:38] but it's-

[01:16:38] It's so amazing.

[01:16:39] These women that get online get such big algorithms, have millions of followers and they present,

[01:16:44] they act, but they have a curated, presented vision of what this femininity they're selling

[01:16:49] is and how beautiful and lovely this life is.

[01:16:51] And it's a staged-

[01:16:52] Yeah.

[01:16:53] Like they're making the money and they're able to do this, but you try and do-

[01:16:56] This is working.

[01:16:58] It's working with young women and it is radicalizing them for the anti-feminist movement every day.

[01:17:06] And they genuinely just think, because again, these are my daughters.

[01:17:11] I talk to them all the time.

[01:17:13] This is what they're interested in seeing.

[01:17:14] They love the beautiful dresses.

[01:17:16] They love these women's hairstyles that they pick.

[01:17:19] They love their natural makeup.

[01:17:21] They love their baking.

[01:17:23] They love their cute husbands because they're newlyweds.

[01:17:27] Almost all of them are newlyweds or young moms and young wives.

[01:17:30] Yeah, because that's not going to last.

[01:17:32] Are these the same women saying it's so hard to be married when they get married at 20?

[01:17:35] It's so hard.

[01:17:36] It's so hard.

[01:17:37] But you know, the Lord is helping me even though it's so hard.

[01:17:39] Yeah.

[01:17:40] It's a whole aesthetic though.

[01:17:42] It's more than just-

[01:17:43] And so the aesthetic is incredibly attractive.

[01:17:46] And so then you get radicalized from there.

[01:17:48] So yeah, so as much work as we have done, they've been doing on the other side.

[01:17:53] And writing books for the older moms who aren't as into the whole-

[01:17:57] I mean, my sisters-in-law have been pushing these books on me.

[01:18:02] You know, how patriarchy is destroying us all.

[01:18:06] You know, these kinds of books.

[01:18:08] Wait, sorry.

[01:18:09] How patriarchy is destroying us all?

[01:18:10] You mean how feminism is destroying us all?

[01:18:12] Yeah.

[01:18:13] How-

[01:18:13] Yes, that's what I meant.

[01:18:14] How feminism is destroying us all.

[01:18:15] And how pushing back against patriarchy will destroy us all.

[01:18:19] I think that's the subtitle of the book I was looking at.

[01:18:22] But anyway.

[01:18:24] Ooh.

[01:18:24] Yeah.

[01:18:25] I think something that I've thought about that kind of feels like it ties in with this

[01:18:30] trad wife thing is this feeling like these terrifying messages that we used to hear from

[01:18:36] the pulpit that I, you know, since deconstructing and leaving, I could say like, okay, these are

[01:18:42] just like those white evangelical men behind a pulpit.

[01:18:46] But now watching Trump get elected again, it feels like, oh, that's not just my old pastor

[01:18:53] or your old pastor or someone who's still a pastor.

[01:18:56] That's what a lot of the country thinks.

[01:18:58] And I think watching the trad wife movement, I've had a lot of similar feelings like, oh,

[01:19:03] this wasn't just something that was specific to this brand of Christianity that we all grew

[01:19:09] up in.

[01:19:10] This is something that's like catching on.

[01:19:12] And that feels very triggering to me.

[01:19:15] Like we did the work to deconstruct these ideas and leave these systems of belief.

[01:19:20] And yet the country, the world that we're living in is mirroring itself or is mirroring these

[01:19:27] evangelical spaces that we were in in ways that feel really scary.

[01:19:31] Because they work really hard to make it pretty.

[01:19:33] And that's the thing I think is the hardest thing for people to understand is that liberals

[01:19:38] aren't trying to make liberalism pretty.

[01:19:40] We're not working on that.

[01:19:41] We're interested in amplifying everybody's voices, allowing people to be diverse, to be

[01:19:47] different.

[01:19:48] We're amplifying people who are who are drag queens, who are, you know, and we're and that's

[01:19:54] weird looking.

[01:19:55] It's not an aesthetic that people are like, oh, I mean, I think it's wonderful and I celebrate

[01:20:01] it every time I see it.

[01:20:02] But it took a while to go from normativity to seeing something completely different than

[01:20:08] you and going from that's weird to those are people I'm curious.

[01:20:12] Like I want to get to know.

[01:20:13] And then, oh, that's beautiful.

[01:20:15] Like it takes a while to learn and undo your own assumptions based on what you've been afraid

[01:20:20] of, what you've been told to be afraid of.

[01:20:22] Of what you think is pretty and what you think is attractive and what you think is sweet and

[01:20:27] adorable.

[01:20:27] Like, and so when they are hearkening back to this 1950s version of what is cute, what is

[01:20:35] sweet, what is adorable and just like pulling people into that and then adding on to it that

[01:20:41] this is also holy and godly and right and good.

[01:20:45] We're not talking about nice and pretty, just good.

[01:20:50] When that changes, then you have people.

[01:20:54] So as fast as those of us have deconstructed these bubbles that were very small when we were

[01:21:00] in them, they were very insular little worlds.

[01:21:03] I felt like my world was so small growing up and we deconstructed that and we're thinking

[01:21:09] and we're watching all the people that were with us, like at least I'd say 65 to 80% of

[01:21:15] the people that I grew up with in this bubble have deconstructed out of it.

[01:21:20] But as fast as they, my mind was thinking, hallelujah, this is going to die.

[01:21:26] This whole thought process is going to just die because we're all leaving it, right?

[01:21:31] There's nobody propping it up.

[01:21:33] What I didn't anticipate was them rebranding and finding a whole new demographic bigger

[01:21:41] than those of us that left.

[01:21:43] So not only is it not getting smaller, it's growing.

[01:21:46] And that is...

[01:21:48] Yeah.

[01:21:49] I mean, if I'm going to give any stats to try and encourage because it is a depressing

[01:21:53] just reality, Trump did not gain any more of the popular vote than last time.

[01:21:56] He didn't.

[01:21:57] It was the other side that lost votes.

[01:21:59] So there's that to consider.

[01:22:00] I also think, you know, when we talk...

[01:22:02] Jessica, what you said about how it's in our DNA, because Maggie, you were mentioning

[01:22:06] how, you know, we came out of this and we're looking at the world having the same...

[01:22:10] Being interested in what we, in our little world, got out of and now they're caring about

[01:22:15] it.

[01:22:15] But I think your point earlier, Jessica, about how the U.S. was built on patriarchy.

[01:22:19] The U.S. was built on white supremacy.

[01:22:20] It was built on wealthy people having, you know, outsized influence.

[01:22:25] And if you look at Christianity, if you look at the voting and what happened, Christians

[01:22:30] have an outsized vote compared to the people who are not Christians in society, in political

[01:22:37] positions of power.

[01:22:38] And Trump's base is still with the religious, especially the religious white people.

[01:22:44] Absolutely.

[01:22:44] It is still like it's the Protestants and the white Catholics.

[01:22:49] White Protestants, white Catholics, top of that list.

[01:22:51] You know, Jewish people did not vote for Trump.

[01:22:54] They did not.

[01:22:55] Yeah, these are the white people in power in Christianity who have linked themselves up

[01:23:01] to secular culture and culture.

[01:23:03] Secular culture likes white supremacy and loves patriarchy and has forever.

[01:23:06] And the Christian movement went, marriage?

[01:23:08] This works well together.

[01:23:10] This keeps us in power as Christians.

[01:23:11] And that's what we want.

[01:23:12] So we don't need them even to come to church.

[01:23:16] We just need to indoctrinate them into patriarchy.

[01:23:18] And I often think of evangelical churches and how they're bleeding out of people who cared,

[01:23:23] who had empathy, who wanted to see us be more inclusive, care about women, care about queer

[01:23:27] people, and how those people left.

[01:23:28] But that made the churches more, have less opposition to the patriarchy and queer phobia

[01:23:35] and white supremacy.

[01:23:36] It made a more insular culture.

[01:23:38] And then what happened is secular people were seeing the church, if they had those values

[01:23:42] of hatred, the church actually was a community that made sense to them where they can be embraced.

[01:23:47] If the liberal people around them were disgusted by their views, the church could accept them.

[01:23:51] And I think the pandemic probably drew in a lot of Americans that were Christian by tradition

[01:23:57] that maybe didn't go to church and were like, here's a community where I can be Trump loving

[01:24:01] and be surrounded by people who embrace my values of fearing the immigrant.

[01:24:07] And the stats definitely back that up, especially with white young people, white young men especially.

[01:24:15] And they're going to bring their girlfriends and their wives with them.

[01:24:17] Mm-hmm.

[01:24:18] Well, I'm going to, on another positive note, say we are the people who have been through

[01:24:24] this enough to see through it, to have the discussions, the argument.

[01:24:27] Again, there's people we've already had the discussions with that's not going anywhere.

[01:24:31] There's people who've been, I mean, we remember being taught to be scared of the liberals,

[01:24:35] of the feminists, of the people who weren't in church.

[01:24:38] So we know the challenge that exists for people to listen to us because we once could put up a big wall

[01:24:44] about hearing from people that were outside of our in-group.

[01:24:47] But we have knowledge on how to approach it because we remember being scared.

[01:24:51] We all know the steps that happened within us to get us moved slowly, little and little along.

[01:24:57] I mean, Nate, one of the things he said to me this morning is, you know, he has a Trump aunt

[01:25:02] and his dad was having a conversation with her, but he's a banker and she's into finances.

[01:25:07] And so he was addressing her on their connecting point, you know, and he's not even doesn't

[01:25:12] consider himself a big Democrat.

[01:25:13] Like, that's not how he identifies.

[01:25:14] He just saw Trump is bad for the economy and he doesn't make sense and I'm not a Trumper.

[01:25:18] So he was talking to his sister-in-law, trying to just talk her through some of that.

[01:25:22] Nate and I were fascinated when he was telling us about his conversation with her because we

[01:25:26] could not have that conversation with her at all.

[01:25:29] She wouldn't listen to us and also we don't have the experience she's interested in to

[01:25:33] care about what we have to say on this topic.

[01:25:35] We're like liberals outside the church, whereas he's still adjacent to evangelicals are connected

[01:25:40] in and he's into the finance world.

[01:25:41] So he was able to talk with her and that made me think we're each going to have to be strategic

[01:25:46] about where we still do have influence and where we don't to be realistic too about where

[01:25:51] not to invest our energy and to pour that energy into supporting our communities that need

[01:25:56] us right now.

[01:25:57] Yep.

[01:25:58] But we definitely have knowledge on what's going on because we've lived through that.

[01:26:02] We were in those bubbles that promoted patriarchy.

[01:26:05] We might have bought into that for a period of time.

[01:26:07] We've lived out the consequences of that.

[01:26:09] Those 20-year-old girls going into it are going to go through a lot of the same things

[01:26:12] that us 40-year-old women or 30-year-old women have come out the other side having lived.

[01:26:18] I've started in my head so many Facebook arguments and then I think, I know exactly what they're

[01:26:23] going to say back.

[01:26:24] I know exactly.

[01:26:25] And I can have the whole discussion, both sides.

[01:26:28] I can do both sides.

[01:26:29] And at the end, I just am like, this is not going to be worth it.

[01:26:32] I'm not even going to do this.

[01:26:34] And I walk away.

[01:26:34] I keep scrolling.

[01:26:35] That's the math we all got away out, right?

[01:26:37] It's been happening all for three days.

[01:26:39] Three solid days.

[01:26:40] I've been doing this in my mind and keeping on scrolling.

[01:26:43] It's just no point.

[01:26:44] Yeah.

[01:26:47] So I think the next thing I want to, I guess, bring up is like, what now?

[01:26:53] What are we up to?

[01:26:53] What are we going to be doing?

[01:26:55] Yes.

[01:26:56] Drink water, everyone.

[01:26:58] Yeah.

[01:26:58] Maybe we could start with like the, the taking care of ourselves specifically rather than

[01:27:03] the like, get to work, which we also like, we should share that if we have, I don't know

[01:27:08] what I'm going to do yet.

[01:27:09] I can't even think that far.

[01:27:10] So.

[01:27:10] Yeah.

[01:27:11] I think it's going to take a while to start figuring out what getting to work looks like.

[01:27:15] I'll add this on getting to work.

[01:27:17] I have one.

[01:27:17] I have one.

[01:27:18] I know, I think the taking care of ourself is priority right now and it should be our

[01:27:21] focus, but I have one little thing.

[01:27:23] And I think for our audiences, this is going to be an important one.

[01:27:26] Content warning is coming up.

[01:27:27] Yes.

[01:27:28] And this is our, an ex-evangelical community that's different than a lot of the ex-evangelical

[01:27:34] community out there because there are so much ex-evangelical community still focused on

[01:27:38] white dudes.

[01:27:39] There are so much progressive space, conferences, beer camps.

[01:27:43] I don't know.

[01:27:44] I can, I don't need, do you want to get into all the titles of boy, white boy,

[01:27:46] white people, white people.

[01:27:48] We are better than theology.

[01:27:49] We are.

[01:27:50] Okay.

[01:27:50] But now that they're progressive and this, and the, the desire to still flock to those

[01:27:55] people and those environments is big ingrained into, I mean, the amount of stuff in my feed

[01:27:59] that I often see where it's the same three guys.

[01:28:02] And there's some white guys I enjoy and promote too sometimes because they have stuff to say.

[01:28:06] But one of the things that I always take into consideration is how much they will platform non-white

[01:28:11] men and women and marginalized people before I start backing up that white dude.

[01:28:15] Okay.

[01:28:15] Whichever that white dude is.

[01:28:17] However, what I love about content warning and what I encourage to people who are listening

[01:28:20] to this and wanting to find community in person to be able to see faces in the flesh.

[01:28:25] I am an introvert.

[01:28:25] So coming to a big conference is scary for me and I actually feel intimidated by it.

[01:28:31] Like I'm just being honest.

[01:28:32] I'm more of an extrovert when I'm talking with the people I love and know who I've made

[01:28:35] friends with.

[01:28:36] I'm excited to see all of you guys, all my dauntless people that I am friends with,

[01:28:39] but I'm bigger scared in a big group because I'm a fake extrovert.

[01:28:43] So if you're also an introvert, if you know what my face looks like, you can come see me

[01:28:48] and tell me you're anxious too.

[01:28:49] And I'll be extra nice to you because I'll know I'm with other introverts that find social

[01:28:54] gatherings hard.

[01:28:55] Yeah.

[01:28:55] Um, I find, you know, evangelical church had that hardness of just awkward socializing.

[01:28:59] And so some of us coming out of evangelicalism know how shallow those friendships could feel,

[01:29:04] how afraid we are to engage in community again, because we don't know what friendships outside

[01:29:08] of evangelicalism look, what if they're the same, what if they're the same crappy relationships

[01:29:12] where once we leave, no one gives a crap about us anymore.

[01:29:14] Like I get the fears and concerns, but I'll say this about content warning.

[01:29:17] I was going to say, can you just real quickly explain what content warning is for people

[01:29:21] who don't know?

[01:29:21] Cause I don't know what you're talking about.

[01:29:23] So content warning is a gathering of exvangelicals to talk about purity culture, to talk about

[01:29:31] human sexuality on the other end of the exvangelical divide of how, what, what does that look like

[01:29:38] now?

[01:29:39] Um, with an especially, a special focus on and platforming of racial minorities, queer people,

[01:29:48] gender non-conforming.

[01:29:50] Yep.

[01:29:50] Exactly.

[01:29:51] So the voices we were never allowed to listen to and that never get platformed, even in a

[01:29:55] lot of these ex evangelical spaces, this is the focus.

[01:29:58] And Megan, she's a white woman who runs, who has been putting this together, but she, the

[01:30:03] way that she has done conferences nonstop.

[01:30:05] And this content warning last year was her first content warning, but she's done other

[01:30:08] conferences.

[01:30:09] And I heard about her because Scott was the one telling me, I went to a conference and

[01:30:13] it was all non-white people and mostly women led.

[01:30:16] And that was so different and refreshing.

[01:30:18] And I heard actually from white guys who came and were like, it was nice to sit down and

[01:30:21] learn instead of being the one on the microphone.

[01:30:23] And that was like one of the priorities on how this was run.

[01:30:26] And so content warning was the start of dealing with purity culture.

[01:30:30] I heard, I heard them saying they want to bring in politics.

[01:30:32] That will be interesting because obviously we all have a lot of sensitivity on this.

[01:30:36] We're all still out or touched.

[01:30:38] Our skin feels a little sensitive to the whole conversation, but it is one, hopefully by the

[01:30:43] time a content warns rolls around in February, it's president's day weekend.

[01:30:47] So think Valentine's day, the weekend, right?

[01:30:49] Following that it's in Atlanta.

[01:30:51] Look up content.

[01:30:52] What's the address?

[01:30:53] It's content, warning event.com, but you can get to it through our website, dauntless.fm.

[01:30:58] And if you register as a listener of a Dauntless podcast, use the coupon code Dauntless10, all

[01:31:07] one word, and then the number 10, not T-E-N, but the number 10, Dauntless10, and you'll

[01:31:12] get $10 off of your admission for the event.

[01:31:16] I will say as amazing as Megan is at organizing community, building a group of people around

[01:31:23] to share, to learn, to listen, she's terrible at sales.

[01:31:28] That's why we're helping out here.

[01:31:30] Where is this going to go, Nate?

[01:31:33] I never know with him.

[01:31:37] So on their after podcast, I listened to their pitch and I'm like, oh, they could probably

[01:31:41] do a better job.

[01:31:42] So I'm going to go ahead and say it's going to be a lot of fun for the extroverts out

[01:31:47] there.

[01:31:47] It'll be great to just see a whole bunch of people and gather and have fun.

[01:31:51] Come see me if you need an introvert.

[01:31:53] For the introverts out there, this is a great conference because it's not one of those kinds

[01:31:57] of conferences where it's going to be too much high energy and you'll have a group of people

[01:32:01] and you can cluster up into your little crew.

[01:32:05] And for those who are really not into the conference circuit, this is a good one because

[01:32:09] it's panels.

[01:32:11] It's groups of people.

[01:32:21] It's not.

[01:32:22] It's not a keynote speaker, this and keynote speaker that.

[01:32:24] No, this is panel of back and forth dialogue.

[01:32:28] Yeah.

[01:32:28] What community should look a lot more like what we're not used to as evangelicals.

[01:32:32] We're so about the stage, the person on the stage and the big audience listening.

[01:32:36] And this is much more about collaboration and about community building.

[01:32:40] So if you want different models for even looking at how it looks like to gather with a group

[01:32:44] of ex-evangelicals, Nate and I will be there.

[01:32:46] Scott will be there.

[01:32:46] I know Maggie, you're going to be there.

[01:32:47] Jessica, hopefully that works out for you.

[01:32:48] I was just looking at it.

[01:32:49] I'm like, oh, I want to do this.

[01:32:51] Yeah.

[01:32:52] It'll be in Atlanta.

[01:32:53] So it's a little bit of an easier trip.

[01:32:55] They were trying to make it more.

[01:32:56] Last time it was in Portland, Oregon and Atlanta was just more accessible for everyone to be able

[01:33:01] to be there.

[01:33:01] It definitely is for me.

[01:33:02] We're going to drive in.

[01:33:03] Yeah.

[01:33:04] Yeah.

[01:33:04] So think about that.

[01:33:06] Think about it's a long weekend.

[01:33:07] It's President's Day weekend.

[01:33:08] Hopefully if you have the day off, you can even make a little bit of a trip of it and explore

[01:33:12] Atlanta.

[01:33:13] Maybe see if you have a few ex-evangelical friends and you could group together, road trip together,

[01:33:17] get a place together.

[01:33:20] Or even if you have ex-evangelical friends you've met through communities where you haven't

[01:33:24] met in person and you've been looking for an excuse to get together, like to meet each

[01:33:27] other face to face, book an Airbnb and Atlanta together and be like, this will be a conference

[01:33:32] to build it up.

[01:33:33] Great idea.

[01:33:34] That's it.

[01:33:36] We're coming out of election.

[01:33:37] We're all raw.

[01:33:38] We're all hurting.

[01:33:40] We're devastated and we need community.

[01:33:42] And I think this is a way to start to get to work by just having conversations and people

[01:33:47] surrounding us in the flesh.

[01:33:48] Like you were saying, Jessica, people you've met online and talking with and then standing

[01:33:51] in a parking lot, chatting for hours.

[01:33:53] I mean, one of the things Megan did say to sell it, which was, I think a good pitch, was

[01:33:57] just like the conversations at content warning were not just at the conference.

[01:34:01] It was the booking the Airbnbs together, the going out to watch shows and concerts live

[01:34:07] in the city that they were all in, going to the restaurant after together and chatting.

[01:34:11] That's where, and that is what real community looks like.

[01:34:14] It is friendship building.

[01:34:15] It is knowing each other on a personal, real level when you see each other and look in

[01:34:18] each other's eyes and share those real things about what you're dealing with in your day

[01:34:21] to day.

[01:34:22] So yeah.

[01:34:23] I mean, we have other friends who are not part of Dauntless, like Janice will be there

[01:34:27] and we're excited.

[01:34:28] We're excited to have you there.

[01:34:30] So that's my, my, your work.

[01:34:32] If you need something to get to busy, if you're the type of person who's like, I want to sit

[01:34:35] in my feelings for too long and I want to get to work and that's how you deal with your

[01:34:38] feelings is coming up with the next thing.

[01:34:41] Then here's your thing.

[01:34:41] Here's the next thing.

[01:34:42] Go register content warning.

[01:34:43] Now let's do the self-care stuff.

[01:34:44] Yeah.

[01:34:44] What do you guys have?

[01:34:45] Well, so content warning was going to be a self-care thing for me because it's like,

[01:34:51] I needed something to look forward to and I needed something like it's really important to me

[01:34:57] that I keep finding pockets of community that are safe because like I said, I'm in a blue state,

[01:35:04] but like right around me feels strangely conservative.

[01:35:08] And so I want to make sure that I'm actively seeking out spaces that are with people who I

[01:35:15] know are safe, who I can share things, who I can continue to figure out who I am, be my full

[01:35:21] self.

[01:35:22] So content warning for me is that.

[01:35:24] And I've just met Megan in person for the first time because she was in Boston.

[01:35:29] So I went down and met her.

[01:35:30] I saw that picture.

[01:35:30] It was so fun.

[01:35:31] I haven't even met you and we're close to you.

[01:35:33] Boston to New York.

[01:35:35] Right nearby.

[01:35:35] So I'm like –

[01:35:36] And we go to Boston pretty frequently too.

[01:35:38] We just – the last times that we've been in Boston was –

[01:35:41] Too much going on.

[01:35:42] Yeah.

[01:35:42] Yeah, but too much going on and I think we hadn't actually conversed yet.

[01:35:45] I was going to say, I feel like you guys haven't been in Boston since we've actually

[01:35:48] met.

[01:35:48] Yeah, no, we haven't.

[01:35:50] So we got to do that.

[01:35:51] It's on our – I mean, Boston is a city that we go to pretty frequently.

[01:35:54] Yeah, and same for New York.

[01:35:55] We'll be over.

[01:35:55] But I haven't been since I met you guys.

[01:35:57] Well, see, you guys are probably all in Atlanta maybe before Boston.

[01:35:59] So that will be nice in February.

[01:36:00] Yeah.

[01:36:00] So yes, that's my – that is one of my self-care things is like I want to connect – continue

[01:36:07] to connect with people whether it's in person or online but have things to look forward

[01:36:11] to.

[01:36:12] So I'm planning a couple little trips to visit my sister, to visit my sister-in-law.

[01:36:17] I'll see you guys at Content Warning.

[01:36:19] Maybe we can plan a New York City trip and I can come visit and that kind of thing.

[01:36:24] So like find your people.

[01:36:25] Find ways to connect with them.

[01:36:28] Like book a flight.

[01:36:29] Pick a weekend to drive down to a friend.

[01:36:31] Like make those things happen because we all need a little boost.

[01:36:36] Yeah.

[01:36:36] Yeah.

[01:36:36] What do you guys got?

[01:36:37] The rest of you guys got?

[01:36:42] Jessica, Nate.

[01:36:43] Nate and I keep doing this.

[01:36:44] I keep dancing around.

[01:36:45] Who's going to go first?

[01:36:46] I'm going to go first this time.

[01:36:48] Go for it.

[01:36:48] No.

[01:36:49] I think that for me, like I said earlier, I really think that we're going to have to find

[01:36:57] our in-person people and surround ourselves with our in-person people because I just don't

[01:37:02] know how fit safe we're going to feel online.

[01:37:04] I know that all of us have deconstructed so much through our online communities and it's

[01:37:09] been huge and it's been wonderful.

[01:37:10] But I think that that may not feel safe going forward for a lot of us.

[01:37:17] And so I think as we pull into our community groups and try to like turn relationships that

[01:37:23] were just online into in-person, I think will be huge.

[01:37:27] And so I've been hired at work on that.

[01:37:29] I think the other thing too is just getting out in nature.

[01:37:33] I'm trying to learn a lot about grounding myself to the earth, finding ways to absorb

[01:37:39] the earth's energy and allow it to rejuvenate my cells and my bones.

[01:37:45] And reconnecting with that has been something that I've been thinking a lot about in the

[01:37:52] past few days and just how we can do that with one another, maybe yoga in the park or

[01:37:58] those kinds of things and just taking walks and breathing some fresh air, even just stepping

[01:38:04] out the back door and taking some big deep breaths.

[01:38:08] I think that these are things that I am actively adding to my toolkit and looking for ways to

[01:38:16] make sure that I do that.

[01:38:17] Shutting off when I need to, finding funny books to listen to that are not too serious,

[01:38:23] that aren't too much to do so that I can pop in headphones and like Gail was saying earlier,

[01:38:28] just disassociate a little bit, but in an intentional way that like tries to, I know that one of

[01:38:34] my friends was talking about last night, just picking up physical books.

[01:38:37] She and her husband just picked up a physical book and sat down and read.

[01:38:40] And we're like, I can't remember the last time I read a book.

[01:38:43] I mean, we read, we all are readers, right?

[01:38:45] But a lot of us are big readers.

[01:38:46] We have our audio book going or we have our articles that we're reading and stuff, but maybe

[01:38:51] unplug a little bit and pick up a paper book, even if it's at a thrift shop where you

[01:38:56] can grab something that's secondhand so that you're not, you know, contributing to more

[01:39:01] books in the world that are not needed.

[01:39:03] But you know what I'm saying?

[01:39:05] I think that those are just some, some things I found really helpful for me.

[01:39:09] You're, you're, when I'm listening to you, I just, I put on my evangelical hat for a few

[01:39:14] seconds as I was listening.

[01:39:15] I'm like, oh, tree hugger, yoga, all the stuff you were warned against.

[01:39:18] All the bad things.

[01:39:20] But then I, I, you know, coming out of that, I would say to the people, if there's any of

[01:39:24] you that are listening and you come out of that environment, you're starting to peek

[01:39:27] your head out and then you're looking and you're hearing us and you're going, oh, that's

[01:39:31] the stuff I'm supposed to be scared of.

[01:39:32] Why are they all into these weird, these weird things like yoga and hugging trees or touching

[01:39:36] dirt or whatever?

[01:39:37] I'm going to say this.

[01:39:38] We've been taught in evangelicalism to detach from our bodies and that's how we've learned

[01:39:43] to cope, to shut off our feelings.

[01:39:44] Your feelings are bad.

[01:39:45] You are bad and so dissociating is actually an active part of staying inside of evangelicalism.

[01:39:51] Being detached from your own body, from your own feelings, from, from being able to, the

[01:39:55] amount of holding your breath you might even be doing in those environments continually in

[01:39:59] a survival mode.

[01:40:00] When you step out, I liked how you said toolkit, Jessica, because I think if you're thinking,

[01:40:04] well, why yoga?

[01:40:05] Why this?

[01:40:06] It's literally learning to feel in your own body.

[01:40:09] It's learning to get in touch and ground yourself, helping you retrain your nervous system to be

[01:40:14] able to function and to be able to, to relax and to be able to breathe well.

[01:40:19] These are all things that, you know, when you're in a high control religious environment, you

[01:40:23] don't get to do and it actually prevents you from, from being well.

[01:40:27] Well, and, and it affects your mental health.

[01:40:29] I think that that's one of the things that I felt like evangelicalism took from me was my

[01:40:33] ability to be inside my body and be safe there.

[01:40:36] And that is just such a dangerous thing when you can't be inside your body and feel safe.

[01:40:42] And I think that as I've tried to work in therapy and all of these, these things of healing is

[01:40:50] learning that to, to find within myself the compassion and gentleness and safety I can

[01:40:58] provide to me within me is such a foreign concept.

[01:41:03] Like it's so alien to everything we were taught in evangelicalism, which is you are bad.

[01:41:09] You are evil.

[01:41:11] Your core, your very self that God made and put on this earth is inherently evil.

[01:41:20] The last message I heard in an evangelical church, and I decided I was never going back.

[01:41:25] It wasn't even a church.

[01:41:26] It was a Bible study group that was non-denominational, but it was every cell of your body is tainted by sin.

[01:41:33] Those were the words that stuck.

[01:41:34] And those were the things that made me walk out away.

[01:41:37] Like that was the final, that was actually the last evangelical group I was a part of.

[01:41:40] Well, that makes you unsafe in your body.

[01:41:41] You are unsafe there.

[01:41:43] Your soul.

[01:41:44] That message you're saying, it was hammered in for sure.

[01:41:47] And undoing that is, is not an easy process.

[01:41:51] It's very long.

[01:41:52] And it was the biggest thing that I panicked from when I first was, my divorce began because

[01:41:57] now I didn't have marriage either because you're taught that marriage is this, this place you

[01:42:02] can be and you're, you're protected.

[01:42:04] At least that's what I, the message that I internalized and not being married anymore made

[01:42:10] me feel like I am, I am just out here exposed.

[01:42:14] I am unsafe.

[01:42:15] There's no, there's no edges.

[01:42:17] There's no umbrella of protection over you.

[01:42:19] Yes.

[01:42:20] There's no parameters.

[01:42:21] Sorry for the Gothard imagery.

[01:42:23] It's so true.

[01:42:24] No, that's where it comes from.

[01:42:25] Yes.

[01:42:26] And I grew up in Gothard.

[01:42:27] So deconstructing that has been the most difficult thing because it's so far baked in from the time

[01:42:34] I was so little, so small being told that I was bad and I was evil.

[01:42:38] So therefore I'm not safe inside of me.

[01:42:41] I'm only safe reaching out to Jesus.

[01:42:43] And that's so intangible.

[01:42:45] And so, so creating that, that safe space inside of my body, inside of me, inside of my mind

[01:42:52] is a place that I can be and doing that by grounding myself in the earth and the air and the atmosphere

[01:43:00] and all of these things.

[01:43:02] It's just, it's beautiful.

[01:43:03] I have loved, loved, loved learning those things and building that and then realizing I'm okay

[01:43:09] no matter what happens in the world.

[01:43:12] That's so unsafe and feel so uncertain.

[01:43:16] I know that inside of me, I can be and I am okay and I love me and I am, I am gentle with myself.

[01:43:24] And that is a safe place.

[01:43:25] This feels like a good time to throw in Hello Deconstructionist's tagline, which is you are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are.

[01:43:35] I love listening to your podcast because you always say that and I'm just like, you're speaking with me.

[01:43:40] I just like, we all need to hear it because we've heard what you were just talking about, Jessica, for so long.

[01:43:46] And whether it's about every cell in our body or a piece of our identity that we just can't seem to like let go of this idea,

[01:43:54] whether it's sexuality or race or gender or whatever.

[01:43:58] It's like we've held that for so long that we need to hear it over and over again.

[01:44:03] In fact, the last couple days when I was texting with my friend Joe that I was saying earlier,

[01:44:08] I was just feeling so overwhelmed and he texted me.

[01:44:11] He's like, you say this all the time, so I'm going to remind you that you are good and you are loved and you are worthy.

[01:44:17] And it's just as you are.

[01:44:19] Like you don't have to change your sexuality.

[01:44:21] You don't have to change anything about you.

[01:44:23] So I just like to throw that in there because I need to hear it too.

[01:44:27] Those are such good messaging.

[01:44:28] Such good message.

[01:44:29] So true.

[01:44:31] Yeah.

[01:44:31] Nate?

[01:44:32] I think.

[01:44:34] What's she doing?

[01:44:34] What's she doing to care for you?

[01:44:36] I don't know.

[01:44:37] Just, well, I'm in school.

[01:44:40] I'm pointing to your watch.

[01:44:42] Do you want to see what time it is?

[01:44:43] No.

[01:44:44] Because you use it to.

[01:44:45] Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[01:44:45] Right, right, right, right.

[01:44:46] Yeah.

[01:44:46] Well, I mean, I've been trying to get back in shape a little bit.

[01:44:49] So.

[01:44:50] Encouraging.

[01:44:51] Not just because I aesthetically enjoy how he looks and he's at the gym all the time,

[01:44:54] which I'm very impressed.

[01:44:55] I'm like poking at him at night.

[01:44:57] Like, ooh, look at that.

[01:44:57] So hard.

[01:45:09] Or we can handle this.

[01:45:10] No, I meant his chest.

[01:45:10] We'll see you at content, Horny.

[01:45:12] I meant his chest.

[01:45:14] From all his reps.

[01:45:15] Sure.

[01:45:15] Sure.

[01:45:15] He's always like, ouch.

[01:45:16] That's what you meant.

[01:45:18] Once again, where's Scott?

[01:45:19] This goes on Horny Chapel Podcast.

[01:45:21] I know.

[01:45:21] Scott.

[01:45:22] He left a goodbye message.

[01:45:24] He popped out of here.

[01:45:25] He said, I got to go to lunch.

[01:45:26] Thanks for doing this, y'all.

[01:45:27] Last thing I wanted to say was those single issue voters can kiss my ass.

[01:45:31] They voted to keep abortion.

[01:45:33] And for one guy who killed it.

[01:45:34] Yeah.

[01:45:34] I don't even know what to say about that.

[01:45:36] Okay.

[01:45:36] But thanks, Scott, for joining us.

[01:45:38] If you haven't heard his voice, that's where he wanted to go to lunch.

[01:45:41] Nate getting back to us.

[01:45:42] Sorry.

[01:45:43] So I had to just segue off, man.

[01:45:45] But so he's been using his watch for exercise.

[01:45:48] I take it.

[01:45:49] He has been working out.

[01:45:50] Yeah.

[01:45:51] I have a smart watch and it keeps track of me.

[01:45:53] You know when you start a good habit and then something devastating happens, it's easy

[01:45:56] to just be like, screw everything.

[01:45:58] I have no more energy.

[01:45:59] I want to just crawl under my blanket and stop.

[01:46:01] But I was like, Nate, you have been on a good track for yourself.

[01:46:03] And like if I was in an exercise mode right now, I would just seriously.

[01:46:07] Like what you were saying, Jessica, about being in touch with your body.

[01:46:09] I would have stayed in that.

[01:46:10] My knees are giving me lots of issues.

[01:46:12] So I feel like I'm not in a position where I could use that as my thing, which is making

[01:46:16] me sad.

[01:46:16] But I'm like, keep keep at that.

[01:46:18] I think that's a great self-care for you.

[01:46:21] Yeah.

[01:46:21] So I'm doing that.

[01:46:23] You know, went back to the gym.

[01:46:24] And then my first day back after the election, it was even the gym felt weird.

[01:46:29] Everybody, you know, and it was it was quieter than than usual.

[01:46:32] Everyone just kind of there was an air on campus like you could feel it.

[01:46:37] It felt thick.

[01:46:38] It felt dark.

[01:46:39] But no, it felt good to be back there.

[01:46:42] I think, you know, there are certain things I just can't.

[01:46:44] I'm trying to get back into some hobbies that I can't see.

[01:46:48] Nothing is seeming to to stick.

[01:46:51] Like I went to bed, tried to play some video games and it like I'm just stuck.

[01:46:57] Can I give a thought on that for caring for yourself?

[01:46:59] And they apply to you and other people as well.

[01:47:01] If you're trying to get back into the hobbies and things that always connect really well for you and it's not working, be patient with yourself.

[01:47:08] It's OK if right now you're grieving so hard.

[01:47:10] Like I have a hard time focusing on any.

[01:47:13] I was hanging out with my mom and that's a source of comfort for me is like just chilling with her.

[01:47:17] I am.

[01:47:18] My mom is sort of like a child in a lot of ways.

[01:47:20] Mentally, she's maybe nine years old, you know, and so when I hang with her, it's sweet in a certain way.

[01:47:25] And I look after her and I help her do her food shopping and things that she needs to do.

[01:47:30] And it kind of just brings me internal joy.

[01:47:32] And I was with her.

[01:47:33] And, you know, we even laugh at cute little things.

[01:47:35] We'll watch.

[01:47:36] We'll watch Stephen Colbert together.

[01:47:38] We have like little shows we'll sit and watch together.

[01:47:39] But like I couldn't I couldn't even enjoy my time with her.

[01:47:42] It was right after election.

[01:47:43] I was like just stunned and I couldn't focus and I couldn't enjoy being in her presence the way I usually do.

[01:47:48] I felt like I was a robot.

[01:47:49] I felt like I was a zombie walking through the stuff that usually brings me joy.

[01:47:52] So when you're talking about you couldn't get into your video games, if if you're looking to the things that usually help you and it's not working, don't give up.

[01:48:00] Just be patient with you.

[01:48:01] If you keep trying, you know, give it a few days and go back and see if, you know, after a little bit more time, you're you're able to.

[01:48:08] Yeah.

[01:48:08] I mean, in my in my situation, not a whole lot of time because I am in grad school and working full time.

[01:48:14] So there's a lot on my plate.

[01:48:15] Thankfully, there's a lot to keep me busy and a little bit distracted.

[01:48:18] So in that in that sense, that's good.

[01:48:20] But yeah, I mean, you know, obviously trying to to find some enjoyment there.

[01:48:26] But I like, you know, Jessica, like what you were talking about, getting out into nature, feeling grounded.

[01:48:31] You know, one of the benefits that that I have in currently with our try to look for silver linings and the fact that we're still not living together, but traveling up to Montreal from from New York City.

[01:48:40] Got to escape right now.

[01:48:41] You've gotten to escape from the US for the weekend.

[01:48:43] It probably feels a way.

[01:48:45] Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

[01:48:46] I mean, you know, this time around, I haven't felt it because I literally have not left the house since getting in.

[01:48:52] So it's not like I've walked around around the city or going out in a few hours to celebrate Nate's 40th and party.

[01:48:58] This day was ruined by the election and he needs like a proper celebration.

[01:49:02] So our friends are all going to go to a Japanese restaurant.

[01:49:04] Yeah.

[01:49:05] Yeah.

[01:49:05] So but yeah, you were talking about getting out in nature.

[01:49:08] And, you know, I've been diving a little bit back into photography and trying to find a good genre that I want to, you know, play around with a little bit, whether that's street urban photography or portraiture landscape.

[01:49:20] You know, that could be fun.

[01:49:22] You know, I drive through the Adirondacks.

[01:49:23] That was the thing.

[01:49:23] Like one of the benefits of our arrangement right now is that I get to drive through the Adirondacks.

[01:49:29] And yesterday, because I took the day off work, I could drive up early enough where I didn't lose sunlight in the mountains.

[01:49:35] And it was just gorgeous to kind of take like just look at everything.

[01:49:39] And it's yeah.

[01:49:41] So those things are some of the things that I'm taking some comfort in.

[01:49:46] As far as what I'm going to be doing, I don't know.

[01:49:49] I know we'll be doing this, you know, all of us here in the Dauntless Media Collective.

[01:49:55] We're not going away.

[01:49:57] Some of our podcasts might be, you know, hit or miss.

[01:50:00] Like, again, none of us are doing this as jobs.

[01:50:02] So, you know, we miss meaning we might be offline for a bit and then back on and spotty.

[01:50:06] Yeah, I know.

[01:50:07] I know.

[01:50:08] Gail and I have been quiet lately.

[01:50:09] We've got an episode that we still need to edit, but we're not going anywhere.

[01:50:13] We're still around.

[01:50:14] So those of you who listen to us and look to us for some support, we're around.

[01:50:19] You can always reach out, you know, head over to dauntless.fm.

[01:50:22] You can find us there.

[01:50:24] Our social media.

[01:50:25] Jump into our Discord server and chat with us.

[01:50:28] We've got a thread.

[01:50:29] It's pretty quiet in there.

[01:50:30] But yeah, feel free to jump in and chat.

[01:50:32] Yeah.

[01:50:32] There are a few people who are regularly posting messages, which is always fun to see those people,

[01:50:37] you know, without fail replying to some of the little prompts that our bot puts in.

[01:50:42] I don't know if they know they're talking to robots, but yeah, there's some robots in our Discord.

[01:50:47] Well, people like to share their stories and that's, you know, come into the server, share your story.

[01:50:53] We're here.

[01:50:54] We want to listen.

[01:50:55] We want to chat.

[01:50:56] And it's, you know, it's good to have that community.

[01:50:59] So we're going to be around.

[01:51:00] We're not going anywhere.

[01:51:01] My end, I think I've said it all.

[01:51:03] And I love, echo everything you guys are saying.

[01:51:05] The be patient with yourself thing I said earlier to you, Nate, but with everyone else.

[01:51:09] And what have I been doing?

[01:51:10] I have been writing.

[01:51:12] I don't know.

[01:51:13] Sometimes writing for me is a good.

[01:51:14] You're on fire.

[01:51:15] I'm just like, she has words.

[01:51:17] I have no words.

[01:51:18] Like, I have been just like locked up.

[01:51:20] Like, there's no words coming out for me.

[01:51:23] And I don't always have words.

[01:51:25] I don't always feel.

[01:51:26] But like, if something is unlocked to be able to write and it's coming out, then I might as well enjoy using it.

[01:51:32] But it feels nice to figure out whatever the piece of you is that is activated enough to whatever it looks like.

[01:51:38] For me, it's writing right now.

[01:51:39] But I'm surprised by it.

[01:51:41] Like, I'm surprised by it, too.

[01:51:42] I'm like, oh, I'm going to write my first sub stack and actually start putting thoughts out there into the world.

[01:51:47] It'll be through full mutuality if you want to want to get a hold of what I wrote about the election.

[01:51:51] Probably my first one.

[01:51:52] And I'll probably write more and more.

[01:51:54] Do you know what I want to do before Inauguration Day?

[01:51:58] I want to get to D.C.

[01:52:00] I've never had done a D.C. trip yet.

[01:52:03] I have not in my entire life.

[01:52:04] Jessica, tell me when you're going.

[01:52:08] I will come drive down and join you.

[01:52:11] Are you planning on going for the march?

[01:52:14] I am.

[01:52:14] I didn't know about the march yet.

[01:52:17] What's the march?

[01:52:18] January 18th.

[01:52:19] Okay.

[01:52:19] Yeah, January 18th.

[01:52:21] It is the Women's March.

[01:52:22] And it's like it's always been this sort of grassroots Women's March.

[01:52:27] But then when Trump got elected the first time, it was absolutely massive.

[01:52:33] I remember that really well.

[01:52:35] But I didn't realize they were doing another one.

[01:52:37] It's going to be huge.

[01:52:38] But I kind of wanted to go in while it's still chill a little bit.

[01:52:43] And I wanted to.

[01:52:45] It's probably going to be a very somber trip for me emotionally.

[01:52:48] And my boyfriend and I were talking about going together and just trying to absorb the history there, absorb the feel while Biden is still in office.

[01:53:01] And because I'm not going to go while Trump is in office.

[01:53:05] And that's something that I had been planning for months to go to Inauguration Day because I thought Kamala was going to win.

[01:53:14] Yeah.

[01:53:14] And thinking about all of that now is just so hard and so heavy.

[01:53:19] So, yeah, that's something that I was just thinking.

[01:53:21] And this is something I really, really want to do before Biden leaves office.

[01:53:26] Yeah.

[01:53:26] If you go before then.

[01:53:28] Yeah, I will be before then.

[01:53:29] Probably in December.

[01:53:30] Yeah.

[01:53:31] Because the 18th is sort of the second to last day of the Biden.

[01:53:34] The second or third to last day of the Biden.

[01:53:35] And I'm really not sure I want to be there for that kind of tension because it's going to be high.

[01:53:41] Really, really, really high.

[01:53:42] And I think there are going to be marches outside of just the one in D.C.

[01:53:46] I know there will likely be one in New York City.

[01:53:48] And that I will probably go to Austin for.

[01:53:50] I would definitely show up in Austin for that.

[01:53:52] And that would probably be very important for there to be a big show in Austin, Texas about our capital.

[01:54:00] I think of, you know, and maybe ending with notes of hope.

[01:54:04] I think about the Black Lives Matter marches that were happening in 2020 at the height of the pandemic when it was so scary for your life.

[01:54:13] We didn't have vaccines yet to go outside.

[01:54:15] People were marching in the streets.

[01:54:18] In Canada, people were.

[01:54:19] Montreal was full of millions of people marching in the streets in solidarity.

[01:54:24] And I think of what this was during a Trump era.

[01:54:29] Yeah.

[01:54:29] This is while he was talking about mowing down protesters and holding up his Bible in front of a black church.

[01:54:35] This is what the atmosphere and climate was when people rallied together en masse.

[01:54:41] Sorry for my French.

[01:54:42] But like just gathered and we're like, we're going to we're going to you cannot silence us.

[01:54:47] And I think sometimes protest movements spark up when when we're being shut down and when we're being told you don't get to have a voice.

[01:54:55] So I hope I hope for that.

[01:54:57] Yes.

[01:54:57] I hope that there will be a lot of these kinds of things going on where we continue to be like, guess what?

[01:55:03] We're here.

[01:55:04] We're a group.

[01:55:05] We're going to gather together.

[01:55:06] We're going to continue to be heard.

[01:55:07] We're going to continue to show that we exist and that you can't shut us up.

[01:55:12] Yeah.

[01:55:13] Hallelujah.

[01:55:16] Preach.

[01:55:17] Yes.

[01:55:18] Well, I will be I'll be in D.C. marching on January 18th.

[01:55:22] So if anybody is there.

[01:55:23] Yeah.

[01:55:24] Any listeners are there.

[01:55:25] Get a hold of Maggie.

[01:55:26] I mean, no.

[01:55:27] And maybe we'll see each other.

[01:55:28] Maybe we won't.

[01:55:29] But we'll be marching together.

[01:55:30] Yeah.

[01:55:30] That's right.

[01:55:31] D.C. is not too far.

[01:55:32] I mean, if New York is doing something, I'll probably be in New York.

[01:55:34] But you know what?

[01:55:35] Maybe.

[01:55:36] Maybe.

[01:55:36] If you're in the New York area and you want to be in one of these marches, you can message us.

[01:55:40] We'll see if we're kicking around.

[01:55:41] We'll go show up for these.

[01:55:43] Yeah.

[01:55:43] We've been we've been chatting for a long time.

[01:55:46] Hopefully this gives them comfort.

[01:55:47] If you've been searching for the political podcast talking.

[01:55:49] And I don't know about the rest of you, but I was searching and it's quiet out there.

[01:55:52] It's like the crickets chirping.

[01:55:54] Everyone's in stun shock right now.

[01:55:56] And grieving.

[01:55:57] We felt the need to get together.

[01:55:59] We really wanted to feel the need to speak to our community and to be like, we're listening.

[01:56:03] We're here.

[01:56:04] We're processing too.

[01:56:05] You're not alone.

[01:56:06] Yeah.

[01:56:07] Yeah.

[01:56:07] So we'll put this on all of our podcasts of the folks that were here.

[01:56:13] So Scott will put it on chapel probation.

[01:56:15] It'll go on Hello Deconstructionists, Leaving the Village, Full Neutrality.

[01:56:18] And then some of the other podcasts, I guess we could put it out there if they want to put this on their feed.

[01:56:23] If not, you can always find us.

[01:56:25] I'll give a plug for if you want to share your story, if you think you have a story to share about deconstructing and leaving evangelicalism, reach out to Maggie.

[01:56:35] That's kind of like the storytelling podcast.

[01:56:38] And her podcast is so good.

[01:56:39] It's just great to hear from people in that world and to hear them tell their stories.

[01:56:44] And Maggie's great at drawing people's stories out of them as they're talking.

[01:56:49] So yeah, even when we were talking and I was telling my story, you drew out of me things that I don't recall ever talking to other people.

[01:56:58] And I heard Gail telling her story on your podcast and things that she said that I was like, oh, I don't think you've said that to anyone else or said it in quite that way.

[01:57:07] So yeah, Maggie's really good at that.

[01:57:08] That's such a nice compliment.

[01:57:09] Thank you, Nate.

[01:57:10] Yeah, of course.

[01:57:11] And then our podcast, obviously, ours focuses mostly on the idea of equality and finding those areas where we need to highlight justice in order to upend that inequality.

[01:57:26] So if that's a topic that you want to talk about, reach out.

[01:57:29] Which is more important than ever right now.

[01:57:31] If you were part of an evangelical college or university that traumatized you, Scott's your boy.

[01:57:36] Yes, yes.

[01:57:37] Absolutely.

[01:57:37] Absolutely.

[01:57:38] And if you know about the Bill Gothard ATI world, Jessica is the one you want to send a message to.

[01:57:44] Yes.

[01:57:44] And we've been on hiatus for a while, but we've got other projects in the works and have been for a while.

[01:57:50] So we'll see what we're able to pull.

[01:57:52] Yeah, we're excited to hear your voice, whether it's back on Leaving the Village or whether it's a new project.

[01:57:57] We're excited to hear you back in the trenches.

[01:58:00] I have missed it very, very much.

[01:58:02] And all of y'all.

[01:58:03] I would say we've missed you, but we're in a chat group that talks a lot.

[01:58:07] I know.

[01:58:07] We talk all the time.

[01:58:09] I know.

[01:58:10] And FaceTime and all that stuff.

[01:58:12] Yeah.

[01:58:13] Exactly.

[01:58:13] It's good.

[01:58:15] Thank you.

[01:58:16] Thank you.

[01:58:16] Oh, yeah.

[01:58:17] Anyway, thanks for hanging out.

[01:58:19] Hug your friends.

[01:58:20] Hug your loved ones.

[01:58:21] Hold them tight.

[01:58:22] When Nate got in yesterday, I wrapped my arms around him.

[01:58:26] He started crying in my arms.

[01:58:27] Then my son came into our group hug and wrapped his arms around both of us.

[01:58:31] And I was just like, oh, the men in my life are able to be emotional and they're able to show love and affection and be real with their feelings.

[01:58:39] And I had a happy moment of just having the boys come in and hug each other.

[01:58:45] Grief is healing.

[01:58:46] So, yes, we will sit with our grief and we will be with all of you listening in your grief as well.

[01:58:53] And, yes, feel free to reach out.

[01:58:55] But our inboxes are always open.

[01:58:58] Yeah.

[01:59:00] Well, I love you all.

[01:59:02] Those of you on this call.

[01:59:04] Scott, even though you left, I still love you.

[01:59:06] Love you, Scott.

[01:59:08] Maggie, you want to close us out?

[01:59:09] Because I don't want to have a man having the last word.

[01:59:11] Love you, babe.

[01:59:11] No, of course.

[01:59:12] Of course.

[01:59:13] But I also want to say before, Maggie, before you close us out, I do want to say that all of you in our community,

[01:59:21] those of you who are in our Discord server who chat with us and who sometimes just scream into the void, I love you.

[01:59:29] And to all of our supporters on Patreon, on our various channels, our Instagram followers, love you all.

[01:59:36] And thanks for being with us up to this point.

[01:59:39] And thanks for being with us from here on out.

[01:59:42] Yeah.

[01:59:43] Yeah.

[01:59:43] I will echo what Nate said.

[01:59:45] It means a lot to know that there are people out there having these conversations with us in their own homes, even just through listening.

[01:59:53] And so we appreciate all of you for being here, being here with us and listening.

[01:59:59] Yeah.

[01:59:59] And I hope that listening to us kind of process our grief has helped you process some of your own too.

[02:00:05] And please know that you're not alone and you are good and you are loved and you are worthy just as you are.

[02:00:12] Lovely.

[02:00:13] I love it.

[02:00:15] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast.

[02:00:18] Visit dauntless.fm for more content.