S2E13: Religious Trauma, Healing Communities, & Saying Hello to Deconstruction — with Maggie Harrigan

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a Donless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dotless.fm for more content

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And, since she's our newest podcaster, you'll hear her voice in all the promos during today's episode.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to The Donless Family Maggie.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's get into it. Here is our conversation with the host of Hello Deconstructionists, Maggie Harrigan

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But, and I didn't know why it bothered me so much until, you know, a year or two later when I'm talking about it in therapy and it's like,

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_05]: That bothered me because I have trauma around religion.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Gail.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Nate.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_06]: And this is Full Mutuality.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: On today's show, we are excited to have a guest of a podcast that I've been listening to a lot recently.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Maggie?

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not good with last name, Nate. Do you want to take your crack at this one?

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Maggie Harrigan.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Here we go.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, cool.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_06]: They can say my last name better than I can.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So, I tell you, my last name is so much.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Say it.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_06]: You can also go to SuperNative if you want.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_06]: All good.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome to The podcast.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_06]: As I mentioned, I have been listening to your podcast Hello Deconstructionists and it has just been such a,

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanted to say what I've been enjoying about it and express it on my enjoyment and then get your background from like where you came up with this.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_06]: But I have just been really impressed with the way you carve out space for people.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I think one of the comments I made to Nate about your podcast, something I was really enjoying was I have heard some of the guests on your podcast on other people's but there's a way that you interview people.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_06]: You have a very big skill for interviewing and there's a side of people that you bring out in the way that you ask them questions where I have found like I've listened to the same person on a different podcast and found it okay.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I heard you interview them and I was like, oh, that was so interesting.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_06]: They're story.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a way that you bring out people's stories.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_06]: That's just interesting.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_06]: It's deep and there's something just so lighthearted about your podcast and it's interesting because deconstruction can be a really heavy topic.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It brings up a lot of our past trauma, religious trauma are grief but maybe it's your personality, your likeness, your laughing, your giggle, your fun.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I enjoy listening like it feels like I always feel encouraged after I listen to your podcast.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Like no matter who your guest is on like, oh, just so comfortable and so joy is and so relaxing to get into it even while you're covering hard stuff.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_06]: So I just wanted to say thanks for putting that out there and and for the work that you're doing and the space you're carving out for people and I wanted to put you on I want to turn the tables on you and see if I could grab some of you the ways you question people and see how it is for you and like get your own story.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_06]: It's fun when you get to do the other side of it and I think as you interview different people in here their stories and reminds you of some of your story and you end up telling your own story differently as you reflect on different pieces of your own experience.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm excited to put you on the other side of it.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you so much for being a guest with us and I guess I'd love to start off with where were you when you jumped into this.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you could even start earlier wherever you want in your story and just take us along for the ride.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well first of all. Thank you so much. That's like bringing tears to my eyes that is like the kindest those are the kindest words that anyone could give about a podcast. So I really really appreciate it and I'm so glad that you're enjoying it.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That is that's why we do it to help other people feel less alone and to.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just to create a safe space to hear people stories in a way that.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_05]: That is safe and comfortable and fun because a lot of it is really heavy but also a lot of us had like really fun times in church too and sometimes those get overlooked when we just you know when we're in the healing process and we're thinking about all the shit that happened and how to work through it and all of that is important.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes we can laugh about like the weird the weird game we played at summer camp that no one else would play or like you know there's just like things that this community gets that people outside of it don't get what music did you listen to what you know what was youth group like VBS like all these all this stuff. So anyway.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm so glad that you're enjoying it and that really means a lot. So I started the podcast after I had been in the Instagram world for a little while so I started my Instagram hello deconstructionists in I think either 2020 or 2021 but sometimes after COVID started and I had been doing the bulk of my deconstruction and healing from religious trauma in therapy and

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I just noticed that I had this like anger coming up you know which is very normal as you're healing from healing from trauma but it wasn't like just anger at the church about like my experiences it was like this is still happening to other people.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Like other people are still in the church and still being harmed by this and how can I protect them and in many ways.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, yes, yes, people can see us with Nate and I are nodding our heads so strong at your comment that people are still hurting and it was bothering you and we're just like yes.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's so much harm still being done and I we can't solve all of it by any means but I can create a safe place for people who want to come out of church and I'm very clear that like my goal is not to convince anybody that church is not for you.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Like if you feel like church is a safe place for you by all means go for it.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not anti church for other people.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm very anti church for me because it's not what what I want to do and what I want to associate myself with but if other people find healing in church by all means.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: But for people that don't I like to create a safe place for you to come out after that because it's so like lonely and exhausting and confusing and disorienting when you leave because it's the only world you know for so long and so then you leave and you don't.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't know if it's possible to leave but somehow you do and then you don't know what comes after that you don't know how to talk to people in the world like there's so many things and so just to know that there are other people out there.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_05]: To let other people know that you know there's a whole group of us like there's there's a lot of us out here.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's the goal of the podcast and that was when I started the Instagram account and then eventually it would just like small squares weren't enough and I was loving the conversations I was having in DMs and so I thought.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's let's turn it into a podcast this takes some like I think we have some things to talk about and some conversations to have together so yeah I've been loving it and.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's been really fun and like such a great way to connect with people and hear people stories and yeah.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_06]: You definitely do that beautiful balancing act you mentioned you're not there to convince anyone to come out of church and I find this space this deconstruction space can be very very fraught with that tension of like the people who are like deeply and.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Reconstruct your faith now you can you can question things but there's only so far and make sure you land back with Jesus and the people were like that's just all toxic crap.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And like finding the way for those two different groups those who've stayed in and found something more positive and those who've left and found that to be the positive thing to like meet together and be able to have community I find that's usually.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just only certain people can hold that sort of space intention and I find you do a really good job, but there's questions you ask your guests that I find beautiful as somebody who's out.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And and their questions like you know what the spirituality mean to you or there's things you ask where like it blows me away because I haven't like taking the time to think or how did your faith, you know,

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_06]: all that you really take the time to help people see why it might have been useful to them at the time what it might have contributed to their life in their story and.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_06]: So you do hold that tension really well if just not knocking people over the heads when it comes to where they are and they're in their journey there's like a respect for where they're at so really I appreciate that I think it's it's hard to hold that space if you have been through church harm if you know there's been stuff that's really.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Don damage if you've gone through the angry phase of seeing how much damage the church is doing it can be extra challenging to like yeah even when I hear people putting a positive spin on stuff where I know it's been harmful and like I just feel the cringe coming in and I'm like, you know, so I really value and appreciate the way that you're going about that.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess to back things up how long did it take from you know, how long ago did you leave the church yeah so.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want like my church story? Yeah, when I was in church. Yeah, and also I have a little burning question yeah what flavor of Christianity where you is I don't remember I don't remember whose podcast it was that I was listening to and somebody somebody mentioned it might have been Janis is in the.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Janis it was the suggestion girl on all Janis and podcast and they they said you know what flavor of shit were you we all know.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_06]: flavor of evangelicals and they're all bad flavors. Yes, but it's all shit but what flavor.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You can like those jelly beans that had like the really gross flavors there's like vomit one and the.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_06]: That's right I feel like this is like sometimes it's like tell us the it keep parts of yours which yes when was yours we need to get a box of them and like late like you know label each ship.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_05]: flavor with a denomination you know exactly which denomination is pew like all that.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh man. Okay, so my flavor of shit was non denomination all but I would call it now like I didn't know these words then but I would call it Baptist light.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So it was non denomination but not the charismatic non denomination not the charismatic non denomination all and I did so I went to a summer camp it was.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a men and night summer camp but most of the people that went there went to kind of charismatic churches charismatic non denomination churches.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so when I was there I definitely did dabble in some charismatic stuff but the bulk of my upbringing was in this Baptist light church so I like to describe it.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah and you know when I was younger it was basic like you know I went to Sunday school we had VBS we did all the things and I remember some things like.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Learning about the flood story and being like is God going to kill us all someday like that's what he did in the flood but but also like okay but we're supposed to trust God so just like trust him that's okay.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Or the story of Abraham and Isaac I remember you know reading that story and feeling like.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I think my parents would go to hell if God asked them to sacrifice one of us because I know they wouldn't do it and being worried that they would like my parents weren't Christian enough because they wouldn't kill us and so.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I remember everything just to say hello like just to reflect on which your parents murder you were they good enough Christians or what they tell you like that that's a nice that's an actual.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah and it was like I was so glad but also I was like oh God but I hope they don't I hope God never asks them because I don't want them to go to hell either.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_05]: So you know but but again those are just normal Bible stories that kids learn and so.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I grew up in that and then in high school I remember my church really turned into like a John Piper church my pastor became her obsessed with John Piper so we did like his book studies and Sunday school.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Don't waste your suffering kind of thing that yeah was we did don't waste your life and.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_05]: What's the other one.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't even know that was a book titled don't waste your your life but I just remember reading something about him telling people do not waste their cancer and like just I was just like how horrific.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: He is one of the worst.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_05]: People out there like James stops in his bad like we know all the all the bad ones John Piper is underrated as one of the worst so when Nate might put together the little clips of like advertising for podcast we picked out different clips from different evangelicals just to kind of.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I think it's a good idea to give the context of evangelicals and as a whole and the stuff.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of our clips is Mark Jer Skull talking about running people over at the bus there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Marseille bus.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus those are the options the other one is John Piper talking about that I think she indoors verbal abuse for a season and she indoors perhaps being smack one night.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And then she seeks help for the church.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my goodness like dude do you even hear like all of the clips are like do you even hear yourself like you sound in in the same the wrong word but you sound you sound like a loose cannon you don't unhinged.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_06]: You sound unhinged and you even sound excited about this whole thing like it's it's cute you know and and there's lacking the the horrificness of what you're even putting out there like the gravity of it is lost on you as you're saying this and.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_06]: He's proud of it as saying it.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, he gives that creepy chuckle.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah and like just even using it's so creepy.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So we're down with you because when we picked out our clips we were like what is this stuff that just gives us like the it you know with stuff that makes us go this is so disgusting and just go and Piper get us going and then we threw in a positive and we gave AOC there's nothing holy.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: About writing discrimination into the law and I am tired of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is invoked is in the name of bigotry and discrimination.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm tired of it.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_06]: We we're doing were fun girls, too, but so we had to throw in that like a flip side to the end just to slow it.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So okay, so your church your pastor got really into John Piper.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, which is weird because the the pastor that church that I grew up in.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Saw John Piper as a liberal comp but saw John MacArthur as a liberal compromiser.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he's loved Jones like funny stream flavor.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_06]: We're talking about poop flavors his does yeah, most poopy people flavors.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: All different flavors anyway, yes, so you're your pastor got into John Piper.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes and I remember it was about in high school so I was in like a high school Sunday school class and so we were supposed to be like digging into the word a little more seriously.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And so we were doing don't waste your life and my Sunday school teacher and I'll call him by name because I don't mind calling that shit out.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_05]: His name is Larry and he was teaching us about predestination basically is what it what this lesson was about.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And I remember he drew this like fence on the board and like these horses inside and I'll probably get some of this wrong, but you'll get the idea.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_05]: You drew a fence on the board some horses inside and he was explaining that like God made this perfect plan for you, and that's the fence and we are the horses.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And so we can live in his perfect plan or because he gave us free will, we can also leave the fence and if we leave the fence then we are you know doomed for eternity but he already knows what we're going to do.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So he's trying to explain this balance between predestination and free will and at the time my sister who's older than me.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_05]: She's four years older. She was not a Christian like she had gone to college and you know walked away from the faith and so I was really confused at the time.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Listening to the way that he's talking about non believers and people who.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_05]: God knew that they would walk away.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_05]: God created them anyway and God is going to send them to hell and so I asked explicitly.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So did God create my sister to burn and hell forever and he said yes.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow and I pushed back a little bit and he was like, oh okay wow like you're being real feisty like you don't need to like get the status here with me.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't need to be a man.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's just going to burn and hell for a turny come on don't make a big deal out of things.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Keep it together hold your emotions in all right.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think looking back I think that was the start of my deconstruction.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure that you know maybe you could say it was me thinking my parents would go to hell for not you know it's like all these little things that kind of add up but that was the first one the first time that I remember being like,

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah something doesn't add up and so then I went to a Christian college.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought I would get more answers.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I did not.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I got a lot more questions and I went in really Christian.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I came out of college tired and confused.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I was still going to church but but I was I was tired like I I what do you think were you out in college with that came to if you went in enthusiastic about all the things.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that was the first time I was in college.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that was the first time I was in college.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think it was meeting meeting friends who were gay.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just like very common for so many of us and being like okay that doesn't line up but then I take a new testament class and we learn that you know maybe that's not what the scripture means so I'm like okay so I can believe in.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I can love gay people and still love God that's okay now.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Watching women lead I went to a church that a woman was a pastor and I a friend and I had shared like a link about like women in church leadership together on Facebook and Larry same guy from high school commented on it.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was like women it's not that women are inferior but they do have different roles and this is not a place for you.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I just remember feeling like I was desperately trying to find my place as a woman in the church and ask someone who was loving other people and learning that it was important to love other people and feeling like.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not fitting in the church like the church continually like they're like whack them all like you you raise a good idea and they like whack it down, you know you're like hey maybe we should love gay.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_05]: People and they're like fuck no and you're like maybe women can preach and they're like absolutely not like there was there was nothing that I could do that was good enough aside from like being quiet.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And and listening to the the men at my home church so I think that was a big part of it I also just think like.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_05]: You get older and like you see some of life like I had a couple friends that died in college and you know car accident one was cancer just like and in those things happen like they happened to people and there were no answers and everybody just said like.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_05]: His ways are higher than ours and it was like that's not that's not good enough like there is no higher way that can justify for me.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Killing people on earth like that's I can't I can't it doesn't compute for me.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah so I kept going to church after but like sporadically and then kind of faced it out and.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_05]: When I stopped going I think I knew I wasn't gonna go back but I didn't I wouldn't say it out loud.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think I would have said it to myself I just like wasn't looking at it was like okay I left but like who knows what that was like I don't know I guess I used to go to church I guess.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And then it wasn't until like these things kind of come up as anxiety and panic and stress and in your body eventually and so the not processing caught up with me at some point and that's when I started going to therapy and realized what it was and then began you know the therapy process of healing from religious trauma.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And then and then that brought me to like where I am now which is like let's help other people because hey it's not so bad and we can have fun and.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't die if you swear like it's okay the three of us are all still here you know.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_07]: For now.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not our true.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: All the way from the lightning strikes.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening to this podcast from the donkless media collective.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_04]: If you enjoy what you're hearing we think you'll also enjoy some of our other shows which you can find by visiting donkless.fm.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's a sample from one of them.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello deconstructionists this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find a new practices that help us feel.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that you're good and confident in ourselves.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_05]: You are good, you are loved and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, dig instructions.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_06]: That's such an interesting piece of your story and maybe connect some dots for me on why you have created just such a great space for people to process.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_06]: This is the fact that you ran away from processing for a while and didn't want to look at it and then it just kind of reared its ugly head.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I know Nate and I we love talking about it and in some way it loses a lot of its power that way but we do know a lot of people where it's like they literally bolted and it's so hard to take a look at what was their past and their life and their history and with that meant to them like it's just they'd rather it's all just a bad dream and it's so scary but I think that's a concern that I have

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and I think that's just like what goes on inside if you know do you want to describe maybe how that reared its ugly head for you or like what was the signs of like it was still in you and needed to be worked through or because of this probably people who are feeling that.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely yeah where I am now is not where I was when I stopped going to church and and it was it was really hard and so a couple things happened one I got married and my husband also grew up in church and

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_05]: has also left and deconstructed it and we sort of did it on different timelines but like he left before I did but like and was a great person to talk to through it but he we didn't talk about a lot because you didn't want to pull me out was like it's so personal you know that.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't want to be the reason that somebody leaves.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, so we got married and it was at the time when it was like I'm not we're not going to church but we're also not talking about it and we're not talking when I'm not telling my parents I'm not going.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Not even really telling myself I'm not going.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_05]: But I knew that there were some things that I wasn't okay with.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That the church believed and so at our wedding I said to the pastor which was my childhood pastor.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I said I don't want you to say why submit to your husbands and I don't want you to say marriages between a man and a woman.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And he was really mad.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_05]: He was so upset that I didn't want those things said.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_05]: There's so much of you because that's impressive like super progressive things.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they're super evangelical though right?

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Like weddings are so used to drill all this over people's heads constantly.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So like to even say the lit like this is how I want it and carve it out for yourself is something people don't think to do and it's so important for such a special day that's means so much to you.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Like good on you for like thinking through those things ahead of time and not standing there on your wedding day being horrified.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I get watched brides with their faces dropping as the pastors use their wedding ceremony to say all kinds of stuff they would never be okay with and they just trusted their past.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry side side bar it's so frustrating to me that the day that should be all about you and your partners love for each other.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_04]: The the pastor decides this is an opportunity for me to push my agenda and from from a pastor's perspective.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's that this is you know, this is an audience that I don't know you know the if everyone here these are family members that come from far away they they might not all have heard the gospel.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Right they probably have because we live in the US but from from a pastor's perspective they have a chance to get from the point of why they're doing what they're doing.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, you're just asking them to go faster.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so the the the evangelical pastor be sitting there going they haven't heard the gospel according to me.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So I have a opportunity to take this opportunity to yeah a captive audience they all have to be here because you know.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly okay, but in your point of about weddings I think goes even to funerals like I've been at people's funeral from like I want to hear about so lovely life they've lived.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to hear about them and like I didn't hear barely anything about them it was all about.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a life and that yes supposedly having no 100 and then like why do evangelical preachers ruin people's momentous life events with their side tangents that make it nothing about the actual people's stories and then that side.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm just so proud of you that you like you didn't hadn't deconstructed but it was like the start of it for you or you were starting to like yeah.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_05]: He was like, I don't want to get up there and say things that I don't agree with and I said I'm not asking you to say things that you that you don't agree with.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm asking you to not say things that I don't agree with.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_05]: You can leave it on neutral you don't have to say like marriages for anyone you don't have to say like why is there equal I'm not even asking you to do that I'm just asking you to not say that I am less than the heart as I'm standing up here.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Making a promise to the person that I love and like like you said Nate like why are you preaching right now this is not a day about you but yeah.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_05]: So that happened and then and I just remember feeling a lot of like like I remember sitting on the phone with him and like crying because he was like should I not do your wedding and I was like I don't know it's up to you but you can't say those things so.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know but it was like it brought up so much.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe shame like I think I felt I think I thought I felt guilty about not following those rules but I think that's shame because it's not something that I should feel that about so.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah there was that and then the other big thing that like I really felt in my body was.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_05]: It was Christmas Eve service one year and my dad played music at church and.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't going to church.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_05]: I knew I didn't want to go to church but my parents didn't really know that I wasn't going to church and it was sort of just expected that we would go.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_05]: But before we went I just like started having like a panic attack and I was it was like I couldn't breathe and I was like I don't know what to do because I cannot set foot in that building.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And my sister was just like so kind and she was like hey let's go for walk and we walked the dog around the block a bunch of times until like the time to leave for church was over and we couldn't go and that was that.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't know why it bothered me so much until you know a year or two later when I'm talking about it in therapy and it's like.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_05]: That bothered me because I have trauma around religion and so you didn't want to go back in that building but it was that kind of thing that's like why can't I go where go to this service that my dad is playing at like why is my body not letting me.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And there were just like moments like that where your body my body was like like nope with we are drawing a hard line here and we're not going back.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So it was those kinds of things that pushed me to go back to therapy.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_05]: That and like sex is hard like sex was really hard coming out of purity culture and I and married to someone that I love very much and when we first got married it was like.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_05]: This is supposed to be like perfect suddenly and it's and it's not and so there was a lot of stuff around purity culture too that.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_05]: That certainly came up in my body that was like I don't know how to be in my body while also my body is clearly telling me something is wrong something is wrong.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_05]: So those were a lot of the science that I noticed that pushed me to go get help.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_06]: God I just want to take a moment to be like yeah I'm it makes me angry to think of how we were sold that bill of purity culture.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like that's not one that could just get me going any time but just that all that pressure all of that if you do it this way it's going to be so great and so lovely and so perfect and here and then the stories that I remember you've passed is painting about.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You know if you if you waited what you're wedding and I had had sex before marriage so I was sitting there listening to the metaphors.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I asked the police.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah right like and then like for.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah I was like oh I got pregnant 16 because you know you're not supposed to bring a condom with you because you're going to stop right.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_06]: You know now you're bonded for life and like yeah I got married at 17 and I look back and I'm like what a.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Like crazy journey based on purity culture like just anything I think of all the Christians around me so happy that I was getting married at 17 and I'm like what on earth I have a 25 and a 20 now 25 and 26 year old and I am so happy neither of them are married.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I mean if they did get married now I'd be the be fine but I mean like I'm thinking like I'm so glad when they were 17 18 like their brains are fully formed and now at 25 they fully form and before that I'm like what were they doing and courage anyway.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Side tangent but yes then we're supposed to all of a sudden go from sex, it keeps Sex is gross to this is supposed to be the most wonderful thing ever we go from supposed to be feeling guilty all the time to.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and then all the messaging, yeah,

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I could just roughly like this is a big topic

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_05]: and like, yeah, it's horrendous.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_05]: What's, yeah, set that and make sense lies.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Like so many lies, it's in fear-eating.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And like I feel for 17 year old Gail

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_05]: who's like believing the lies that they told you

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_05]: because that's all that we knew, you know?

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And thinking that like this is the best and only option.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And then being praised for it, it's like,

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah, it's just, yeah, you must have felt so trapped.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, ugh, it's terrible.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and sometimes you don't at the side part

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and maybe you'd understand this from your own story,

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure, but there's this stuff that felt okay,

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_06]: even though you were doing things that later on,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_06]: you'd look back and go, oh no,

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_06]: like that wasn't good for me, but at the time

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_06]: when you were in it, you didn't feel that way.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_06]: You were like, no, this is the right path.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you're like you said you're praised for it

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and you've been conditioned to view this

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_06]: as the only way to look at things.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, it's not like anyone's forcing you against your will

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_06]: but at the same time there is coercion

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_06]: because it's how you've been indoctrinated.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_06]: This is how you've been taught about things.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_06]: So yes, it's your, I really felt like an independent person

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_06]: carving out my own path, but I looked back at it now

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and I'm like, oh, you know, it was following what I was taught

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_06]: to think on these things.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And now I could see the repercussions

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and the, you know, the stuff they didn't say,

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_06]: that played out, but yeah, the time, you know,

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was just so great.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_06]: That what following God's way and what I was taught

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_06]: was, you know, felt, it felt good to do the things.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, if you had any of that or when you were in it,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_06]: it didn't feel initially bad or how was it?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, like when I went to college,

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_05]: it was like, wow, I am doing such a good job.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I became an RA.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I was doing everything I was supposed to do.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_05]: My college was like, I don't know if this was a college thing

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_05]: or just like on my floor, like my, was it a question?

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I was a judge.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, yes.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe this was just like on my floor, my group of friends.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_05]: But we became obsessed with like fasting,

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_05]: like everybody was doing the Daniel fast or yeah.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_05]: So there was a lot of that going around

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_05]: and it was like, yes, this felt like such a good thing,

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, looking back, like, friends developed eating disorders.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like this, this was not healthy

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_05]: and there was no, maybe there was personal growth

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_05]: that happened, but like, that's not the main thing that happened.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_05]: The main thing was we were hungry and we were miserable.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_05]: But at the time, it really felt like, wow, this is exactly

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_05]: what we should be doing, you know?

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_06]: We're so pushing ourselves in the spirit or being more serious.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right?

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, yeah, the euphoria of like, look at how much

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_06]: how willing it we are to.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to go back to something that you said

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_05]: you were talking about earlier and like,

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_05]: what did this in between time feel like?

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_05]: If like, after I left and before I was like starting the podcast

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_05]: and like getting to where I am now and Laurie Anderson,

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I interviewed her on my podcast recently.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh, there was so I keep recommending that specific episode

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_06]: to the first.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That makes me so happy.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_06]: No, and I have, she's one of those examples

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I have heard around other people's podcasts too.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And on yours just a way you guys unpack things

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and had that conversation, I was like, oh, it is so helpful

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and useful and so great.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I made make listen to it.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, we were driving to the beach

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_06]: and it was like, yeah, I listened to her.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, she's so, she's so wonderful.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_05]: She's like wealth of knowledge, we know.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_05]: The queen of deconstruction.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_05]: But she talked about in that interview

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and I hadn't heard her say this before,

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_05]: the difference between deconstruction

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_05]: and healing from religious trauma.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And hearing those two things separately

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_05]: was so helpful for me and it's like,

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_05]: you think I deconstruct it.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Can you repeat less peace of what she had said

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_06]: for those who hadn't heard that episode,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_06]: go and listen to it after this one

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_06]: but for those who just wanted to understand it.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, she talked about the difference

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_05]: between deconstructing, which she says is like thinking,

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_05]: thinking yourself out of these religious beliefs

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_05]: and then healing from religious trauma

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_05]: which takes work with a therapist

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_05]: and work with coming back into your body

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_05]: and not everybody comes out of it with religious trauma

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_05]: but I certainly did and I know lots of people do

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and I think when I came out of college

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I had probably deconstructed in many ways

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_05]: like I had thought myself out of,

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, I didn't believe in hell,

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't believe in heaven.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't believe in a lot of these things

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_05]: but I was still having held dreams

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and all of these things that keep coming up

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_05]: that I'm like, I don't believe in them

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_05]: but why am I so scared?

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I got a speeding ticket once, here's another example.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_05]: One speeding ticket that I've ever gotten

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was like, I am so bad.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I'm a bad person.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I couldn't get it out of my head

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_05]: that I was probably gonna go to hell

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was like, I don't even believe in hell.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Like how is this?

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_05]: How do I feel this so strongly?

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think I had deconstructed

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_05]: but healing from religious trauma

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_05]: was what brought me to the point

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_05]: where I could have these conversations

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and or listen to these podcasts

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_05]: because I couldn't do that right away.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I don't wanna listen to anything.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't until I did the healing

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_05]: that I was able to actually engage with the content

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and not super triggered.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh, and you know what?

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_06]: That note right there,

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanna say from people who are listening

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_06]: to our podcasts, to your hours,

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_06]: that's such a note of encouragement

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_06]: because I think sometimes people don't see their progress

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_06]: at all or can't imagine that they are healing

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_06]: but maybe that's a sign

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_06]: if you're actually taking the time to dive into this content.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_06]: If you're finding yourself listening to this

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and you're saying, I don't think I've done work.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_06]: The fact that you could take some time to listen

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and that you're willing to reflect

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and to like consider and take in,

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_06]: probably shows you've done a lot more healing than you might.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Not even be aware of at this point

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_06]: but I don't know, Jesus, you saying that

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_06]: just made me think help any audience members

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_06]: of hours, your podcasts can know that like

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_06]: it's a big thing to be able to listen to this stuff.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_06]: It shows that you've done certain work.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I often think about like

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_05]: healing for myself looks like

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_05]: not that I never have to go to church again.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_05]: That's great and that's a huge part of my healing

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_05]: but it's not that I don't have to be around the things

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_05]: that make me uncomfortable anymore.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_05]: It's that I can see them and move through them

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and be okay.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And I can see these things that

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_05]: used to be like huge triggers for me

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_05]: and now I can move through them

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_05]: and not be as triggered or not be triggered

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_05]: or be triggered for less than a lot of time.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_06]: That point right there.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And that was one on your podcast with Dr. Ler that I hold onto

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_06]: is the idea that I think some people think,

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_06]: well if I get triggered at all

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: well then I guess I'm still there

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and she mentioned this,

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_06]: what used to take you like a whole weekend

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: you would be stuck in that

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and now you did it in 15 minutes

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_06]: that you moved your way through thinking through what I'm doing.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And it was like, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think oftentimes we expect a healing

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_06]: to just be like a clean, eraser memory

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_06]: where it never nothing affects you at all

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_06]: rather than seeing the actual progress

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: in like time saved through processing through things quicker.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not spiraling you out in the same way

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_06]: it would have way back and that's neat

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and I think sometimes being able to gauge what progress

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_06]: can look like and being encouraged by that can help us.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So I've been thinking every second

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_04]: of that on your podcast

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I've been thinking about like different

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_04]: because I've heard other people in this space

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_04]: talking about distinctions between different things

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_04]: that we do as we exit these environments.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_04]: You have healing from religious trauma

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: which is something entirely different

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: from deconstruction

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_04]: though they can be related

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and they often coincide with each other

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and things that happen in one space

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: will often influence things that happen in another space.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So as you're healing from religious trauma

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_04]: things that you recognize within yourself

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_04]: can influence your deconstruction

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_04]: of how those things have affected you.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's also the third item

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_04]: of decolonization of recognizing how

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_04]: these things have not just affected me individually

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and that I cognitively believe these things

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and now I'm doing the work to remove these from the way

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that I function as an individual

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_04]: but now I'm looking at how these systems

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_04]: have harmed minorities, people on the margins

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'm looking into how these belief systems infiltrate

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_04]: the hierarchy, the structure of the church,

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: paratrooper organizations, the belief systems

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_04]: that we adhere to

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and how they harm others around me,

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_04]: particularly those that are on the margins

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but those are three things that I've sort of

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: latched onto for myself in my own journey

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and how I see myself existing in the world

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and in this space in particular.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey everyone, I'm Maggie from the Hello Deconstructionist's podcast.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to take a moment to say thank you

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_05]: for tuning into this show.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_05]: We're so grateful that you decided to spend your time with us.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Seriously, Portland, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Megan, Nate Scott

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_05]: and the rest of us here at the Dottless Media Collective

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_05]: couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_05]: without your support.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Right now, there are some great discussions happening over

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_05]: in the Dottless Media Collective Discord server.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_05]: If you're interested in chatting with other folks

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_05]: who are deconstructing and decolonizing the

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_05]: oppressive traditions they came from,

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[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_05]: about the latest episodes of the podcast you're listening

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[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_05]: See you there!

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Your last point on decolonizing made me think of a part

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_06]: where you were talking about what you didn't want

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_06]: in your wedding.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_06]: You really were like the women part

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and the part about one man,

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_06]: like the stuff that harms queer people

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and that harms women, nope not going in there.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, there's so much stuff built into the systems

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and structures that, you know,

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, all part of that.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Well I think when you're in Christianity,

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_05]: God is at the center of everything.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And everything, all of your decisions,

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_05]: all of the things that you believe,

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_05]: your views on these minority groups,

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_05]: whether it's race, gender, sexuality,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_05]: all of that comes from what does God say?

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think this was kind of,

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_05]: this was like during my college years,

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_05]: probably as I'm starting to deconstruct

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_05]: but not really knowing it,

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I realized now looking back

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_05]: that my center shifted and it wasn't God anymore.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It was like loving people

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_05]: and helping people be there for themselves.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And then all of these things can come off of that

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_05]: and if God fits into that,

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_05]: if God is a spoke on that we'll great fine.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_05]: But if he doesn't, that's also okay

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_05]: because that's not what's at the center.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think for so long it was like,

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_05]: well we can't support queer people

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_05]: because God says that we can't.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And now I'm like, well we have to support queer people

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_05]: because they're people

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_05]: and if God says that we can't, then God is not for me.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Like that's not a God that I wanna be part of.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's helpful to kind of look at these bigger

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_05]: systems and realize that like the racist ideas

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_05]: and the racist systems that our churches were built on

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and perpetuated, like all of those come from like,

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_05]: well because somebody said,

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_05]: well God says it has to be this way.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And that doesn't have to be our center.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Like it can be caring for people

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_05]: and helping people on the margins

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_05]: and like that's what should be at the center.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Not this God that's killing people or hurting people

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_05]: or yeah, keeping people out on the fringe is of society.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you do this mental ladder in your head

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_06]: that I did when it came to like you described how,

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_06]: loving people as a center?

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And like if God says that and it's not loving someone,

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_06]: then did you do the thing in your head where you said,

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_06]: well if God says it,

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and it must be the best way to help and love a real person

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_06]: to try and make them fit into.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And then have to come into like that collision

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_06]: of actually this is harming them

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and why is God's ways causing more chaos

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_06]: in turmoil and stress and like was there like,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that kind of an explosion of like trying

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_06]: to push those together

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and realizing something wasn't fitting right.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and at first it started with,

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_05]: okay, well maybe God says like in my New Testament class

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_05]: like maybe God says that it's actually okay

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_05]: to love queer people which is a crazy idea

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_05]: that we have to even learn to be okay with that.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_05]: But that aside, maybe it's okay to love queer people

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and then I remember going home and talking with a friend

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and they were crying and they were like,

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_05]: but what if it's not the right way

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_05]: and what if queer people do go to hell

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_05]: and then we send them to hell

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_05]: because we didn't save them

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_05]: or we didn't tell them that it was wrong.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's like I can have compassion,

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_05]: this is, I'm gonna take back this nice comment

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_05]: but in this moment I can have compassion for people

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_05]: who feel that way because they're carrying

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_05]: the weight of everyone's souls on their shoulders.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Like it's their job to tell these people

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_05]: that you're gonna go to hell if you date that boy

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_05]: or whatever.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so I didn't answer your question.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I got off on a different tangent but...

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_06]: No! And I think that piece of like,

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, the compassion that you took back

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we all need it for ourselves

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_06]: because when we look at the most horrific things we said and done

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_06]: at least for myself I could speak for me and go,

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, that was motivated by really being concerned

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_06]: for the other person and thinking God's ways are best

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and wanting, you know, I think maybe my,

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_06]: my religious belief system was less fraught

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_06]: with people are gonna go to hell of,

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_06]: not the eternal security element was in place.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It wasn't like you can just fall off the radar

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and go to hell for everything.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Was like if you believe in Jesus that was the,

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_06]: the heading point but at the same time

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_06]: it was still that concern like,

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_06]: well if you're not in God's will,

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe you won't go to hell but you're gonna have

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_06]: a less of us fulfilling life

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and you're gonna be harming yourself

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's our duty as Christians to call out wrong.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Like just a desire and a concern for being honoring God

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and helping that person to live their best life

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and feeling that it that was really important,

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and like super important.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So it did come out of a place of concern.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Like in my head, it was all justified by love anyway

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_06]: but I think there was that piece of seeing

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_06]: the math as our friend Janice says,

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_06]: the math is not nothing here.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Like it's not, it's just not,

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_06]: it's not if this is supposed to be helping someone

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and why is it actually starting to tear them

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_06]: to pieces to try and follow them?

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, yeah, and like God is love, right?

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_05]: That's what the Bible tells us.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: So it should be that having love at the center

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_05]: and having God at the center doesn't change anything

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_05]: but I found that it did.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_05]: So then it's like, well maybe God isn't

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_05]: as loving as we thought

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_05]: or at least this version of us running as you.

[00:48:40] Right.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, maybe we are doing this better.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That is the piece that really has had a big impact

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_06]: on my own deconstruction has been that like,

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I think in you know, you're mentioning pipe or earlier

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_06]: but he had an article on empathy being sin

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_06]: or was desire and God.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Did one on empathy being sinful?

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was like, I am so not surprised.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_06]: I was expecting this to come down the pipeline

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_06]: because empathy is really about putting yourself

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_06]: in someone else's shoes, which to me

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_06]: seems like the golden rule due to others

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_06]: as you have had them do to you.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_06]: But in reality if you look at all the grand teachings

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_06]: of things, the more you become like that

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_06]: the more it's gonna conflict with all the other stuff

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_06]: that Evangelicalism is turning out.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So then it just becomes, well how do you help people

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_06]: stop caring so much about others

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_06]: so they can follow the Evangelical faith

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's like empathy's bad.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let me just go and say it.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_06]: It's how scary tape letters will be.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they're gonna come get you with empathy.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_06]: That's not just so ridiculous

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_06]: but it's like that's really what the article

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_06]: that they were using was curtake letter.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_06]: See us lose analogy and empathy was the demon.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm like, oh here we go.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_06]: That is wild.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Like what?

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_05]: What did we grow up in where they taught us

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_05]: that empathy was bad?

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, yes.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It is wild to look back at all of the fears

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_06]: that you know and like you said even when you can

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_06]: intellectualize your way out of it

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_06]: like I don't believe in hell anymore

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and the stuff that could end up deep-fruited,

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_06]: launched in your lodged in you

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and just feels hard to pull out.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_06]: How has, I'll ask you one of those questions

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_06]: that you, you know you throw it your guess

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_06]: when you're talking about

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_06]: you know they're past religious experience

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and we've talked through a lot of the difficult stuff

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_06]: for you.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_06]: What have been the pieces of your past

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_06]: that you've maybe carried with you from there

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_06]: that you found helpful in your upbringing teaching?

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Was there anything that you've found useful

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_06]: along the way or things that you might even miss

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_06]: from back in your church experience

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_06]: that are harder to find after it.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Coming out of church, stuff you had to greet or let go?

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think, well I'll start backwards.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I definitely grieved God.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Like when I stopped believing in God,

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I was really sad because I thought

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_05]: like he was a friend, like he was an imaginary friend

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_05]: but he was a friend and so

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_05]: that was really sad and like I really felt like

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I lost something and that was kind of surprising to me

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_05]: because again it was like but I don't believe in him.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So I would journal a lot when I was especially in high school

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_05]: and they were always prayer journals,

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_05]: it was always journaling too God

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_05]: and so I had to think like what do I do

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_05]: with all of those journals and all of that time I spent

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_05]: with this friend of mine in my journals

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_05]: and I realized that, and I've said this before

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_05]: and other podcasts too but like I realized

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_05]: that all of those journals were just to me

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and this is where I'm like oh my God, God is a woman

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and that woman is me.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I was writing to myself in journals

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_05]: and it was too God and and I'm still here.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Like all of those things were still good

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_05]: for my brain to write through

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_05]: and so anyway I guess I've kept this idea of divine

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_05]: but not in any way that we were taught.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_05]: God is not the same, God is like,

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_05]: hey you can stop and listen to yourself

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_05]: and like God is my God is my body having a panic attack

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_05]: telling me don't go back in that church.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_05]: That is me protecting myself

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_05]: and that is like that as divine and powerful.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think I've kept that.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I miss like my summer camp days.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I loved going, what was the cheesy game

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_05]: tell us to?

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, it wasn't cheesy, it was cheesy, it was terrifying

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_05]: but it was so fun.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_05]: So we played a game called Persecution.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow that, that's so good.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_04]: God said so, so Evangelical.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and I didn't realize it was a weird game until

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I started like talking about it with colleagues

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_05]: as an adult and I was like oh yeah yeah,

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_05]: you know like Persecution I camp and they're like,

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry what?

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like that's not a normal game is it.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_05]: That was just a church gift thing.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_05]: You have to describe this now.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to, I want to, so Persecution was a really fun game

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_05]: where all the campers were Christians who were being

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_05]: persecuted and all the counselors were either

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Persecutors or they were like stationed at these prayer houses

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_05]: that helped us like secret underground prayer houses

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_05]: that you had to like, you had to go through all the prayer houses

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_05]: and they would like give you directions to the next one

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_05]: but you had to be secret and quiet

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and you couldn't give the information away

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_05]: and you couldn't get caught by the Persecutors.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_05]: So you snuck, like we played it when it was dark,

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_05]: we snuck around camp trying to like escape the Persecutors.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I hope, sorry I hope no Evangelical youth people are listening

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_06]: to this and getting ideas because this is not so Evangelical

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_06]: like I'm like, okay.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I could see a young niece being like this is a great idea.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_06]: This makes total sense to teach Nate your nodding

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_06]: when she was telling her story.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you used to be?

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, so the game when I played it was not called Persecution

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_04]: it was called Tribulation and it was basically where we were

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_04]: imagining that we were in the end times in the Tribulation

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and like, you know.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And was it the same to just your house?

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And Persecutors never come in again.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And there was one main person and then we incorporated a little bit

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of capture the flag.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_04]: There was like one main person that was on the Persecutors team

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that had a flag tied to them and they were the Antichrist.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know, the Christians had to go grab the flag off of the Antichrist

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and then sneak back into like the part of camp where, you know,

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_04]: the Christian.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I just, I got an idea from this because this is amazing.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow, so I think that what we need to do at these

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_06]: construction gatherings, people all get together.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_06]: We need to like, you know, they always do like these these

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_06]: things.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_06]: We need to find out sessions and carry up and they have all kinds of ideas

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and stuff.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_05]: We need to have the Angelful App Game called Persecutors.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_05]: That would be amazing.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, it's signed me up.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_06]: You can really live your camp days.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to know what else will under start.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So the next, the next content warning event is,

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_04]: is supposed to be in Atlanta or thereabouts.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like on our side of the country.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to bring this up.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So we need to have some time in the evening.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we'll be like, hey guys, we got to play Persecution.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to play actually.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I like this is a really home with the flag in the Antichrist.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Great.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I am sure that there are others who've gone through these camp

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_06]: games with other little, you know, it's like when you learn any kind of

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_06]: card game, it's like there's different households and you're like, oh,

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_06]: you guys were allowed to do that.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure there's other versions you guys haven't even heard of to add to this

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_05]: a lot of other questions.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_06]: For the first time, we're going to say,

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_06]: if you've heard of a lot of other questions about your

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: instructions and your questions,

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: be stuck in my head.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, like another thing I miss.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_05]: The shirt is like, like Christian music, not like the worship Christian music.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm very happy to be rid of that.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_05]: But like, D.S. talk Jennifer Napio know I love.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay Jennifer Napio.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I have to give a shout out you had her on your podcast.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_06]: She was not my style of music.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_06]: But I absolutely loved because she was too sad for me.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_06]: That's why she looked at my styles.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_06]: D.S. talk was more like the, you know, I don't know the power cords in there.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, get pumped up with Jesus, freak, whatever.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_06]: You know?

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_06]: But like the sad stuff I needed to avoid all the pain in my life and just couldn't

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_06]: get too deep.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was trying to like spiritually bypass and numb out.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And that wasn't helpful.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_06]: But I will say like listening to the episode that blew me away was, and they heard you're

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_06]: interviewing with your roots.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_06]: It's great.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was listening to Jennifer Napio fans with you go through her different songs together.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And I like these were not, this is not an artist.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't even know any of the songs.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_06]: But the way each of you broke down how to repackage messages that meant something to

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_06]: back then that you used to love as a Christian.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And now that you've journeyed out of that, how do you process through some of the same songs?

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_06]: And she's taken some time to work her way through that and does some of those same music

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and has re-recorded some of our stuff.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_06]: But that was just so I thought there was such a beautiful exercise in deconstruction that

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_06]: even without knowing the music.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I was so blown away by that one.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that makes it so happy because I did not know how that episode with Lant with

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_05]: people that didn't know her music.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I tried to put a little bit of it in there.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But is it like you did a clip of like some of the ones?

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And then it was like I hope it's enough context for people to like get something out

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_05]: of it even if you didn't listen to her music.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So that I'm so glad that you enjoyed the episode, even though you know what?

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the way it's the way you framed it to.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_06]: You had some people in the panel that were still in the faith and some that weren't

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and had different perspectives on how those songs affected them in it while they were

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_06]: in it and where they are now.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And that was just so cool to watch.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you just music in general and how it impacts our life and how it affects

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_06]: different people differently and how different lyrics, different words, how it's played

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_06]: out in our own lives.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it was just such a beautiful tapestry.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm trying to use none of those cliche things.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you get what I mean.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_06]: It was just, it was a really cool episode.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I found it fast.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you're a super fan and I am like this is giving me so much life.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for saying all these nice things.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, those are some of the, these are my recommended episodes.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_06]: You also have so many episodes with therapists and as somebody who is into religious trauma

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and wants to maybe when they be a trauma therapist, it's been so good to hear so many people

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_06]: who are so informed on this topic who like take the time to unpack.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you've picture guests out there.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure you have people on that, you know, you have never met and you know, just enjoying

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_06]: listening to people's stories but there's some of them I could tell you like you've

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_06]: been excited to like hand pick them to be bring them on as guests.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, your sister, the episode with your sister.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Man, I really enjoyed that one.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Like it's, I've contemplated bringing my sister on our podcast.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Different people, I know that I haven't done yet but I probably won't have the future.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, I just, that was so cool to hear her.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You were talking about her in this episode as we've been sharing and how she were worried

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_06]: about her and that piece of deconstruction of her being in hell.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And then it was so interesting to hear you and your sister going back and forth what it was

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_06]: like for her watching you in your face as a younger sister and where she was at and how

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_06]: she never really hooked her in the same way and how she had concerns for you.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And like I just think of how nice that is on the other side.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, I think for all of us when we come out evangelical family, at least I know in my

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_06]: end it can be very, that can be like a very big challenging area is just how do you

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_06]: interact with people who are still in it where in your family.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, they have a way of looking at it and you are so familiar with that way

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_06]: because your, your mind can just go there like that because you used to be in that.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So you have so much it's hard to not be in your head about how are they going to analyze

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_06]: this because you know how you would have thought through this and you know what they

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_06]: would have say.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I know that when I go into hanging out with family that are still in evangelicalism,

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_06]: it takes so much mental energy to even like try and figure out conversation directions

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_06]: to go to avoid this or that or you know, to not land on landmines but to have family.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And of some people don't have any family that's come out for you.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_06]: That must have been something refreshing.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm guessing that have your big stir and be reunited on the other side.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel so lucky that like she came out first, like she did, she did the hard work.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05]: She paved the way and and I don't say that to minimize the work that I did.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Obviously we you know, were impacted by it so differently that our journeys out were very

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_05]: different in the work that we did to come out was very different.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_05]: But I did have somebody that I could be like okay, she has left and she's okay.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Like she is she's okay on the other side.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think I can be too.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So now I hope that like for people who don't have family that's already out,

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_05]: like we can be that like we can be your family.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_05]: We're we're out and we're okay and you can be too if you want to be.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Or even if you are the big sister and your little sister still in it,

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_06]: there's still time just you know, wait around continue to be that person.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't know where their journey is going to take them and when they will be popping out

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and being like, hey, okay, wasn't ready before to talk about this right now.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Seeing this and this and this and I think that you'll understand more than mom that.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: You know whoever else.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So before we wrap up, I want to play a little creative game.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: We want to get our creative juices flowing.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You are specifically.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I have no idea where we're going.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_04]: This is so on.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: So on the on the topic of you know, our past and you know,

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_04]: the fact that you came from a Baptist Light environment and so I'm somewhat familiar with

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that world even though I was in Baptist not so late growing up.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I did sneak in a lot of like the Christian pop culture stuff even though I was in a

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: loud too because you know, that's even even though it has a Christian facade on it.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: That's still devil's music.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, extra but so we're going to play a little game.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_04]: It's create your own Christian music festival.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You give it a name come up with a name, you know, and if it's something that exists out there already.

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to mark points off of because there were so many of those weird Christian names

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: who knows like, you know, we have you know harvest fest and all of that.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So who would be the headlining band or are we are we thinking back to when we were in that

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_06]: we would like our fantasy.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_06]: You're fantasy.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're fantasy.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So who would be the headlining band and who would be three other either opening bands or bands

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that would be involved in this?

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And then come up with a slogan to put on the merch like a t-shirt or sticker or something

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: something like that.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. Well, my opening band is DC talk or my my headlining band excuse me is DC talk.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Hands down same I was my pick.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, my other three.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Which album by the way?

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Which was your which was your your your go to and all the all the albums.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_06]: So it was like the album for you.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you want to know an embarrassing fact?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Tell me tell me.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_05]: My email.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not a name.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_05]: My email in my screen name for a long time.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Jesus free.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And then I graduated from Jesus free to child of God.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So there you go.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_05]: If anybody feels embarrassed about their old screen names,

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope you feel better now.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_06]: You read.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure I remember on message boards back in the day when people were more into message boards.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Jesus free usually had a lot of numbers after him.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So you were not the only one because that name was so taken that people had to like put in birthday

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and other numbers.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I was Jesus free eight.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_06]: See there you go.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: You gave my point.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I took mine from from a POD song the messenger.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I had a POD as well.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my gosh that's weird.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't know we both had a POD message.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Who was your name?

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The messenger.

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: But instead of instead of S S I had 55.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Nice.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was yeah and that was that was the number I wore for a year and basketball.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my gosh, I'm freaking out because we're married.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes I find it.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't tell you this word.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_06]: No but you don't freak smelt mine was PUD.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And mine was so jaw.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Nate.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_06]: How?

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_06]: How did we not notice somebody there as a guy?

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And God's name is J.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Jaw was so cool.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, J.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh for those who don't know the weird event,

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_06]: J.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_06]: J.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: J.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Saying, J.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: J.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I meant J.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: J.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Hova.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So you guys.

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Papa's.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe we'll call.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll call this festival in the light.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Since DC talk is headlining.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_05]: It's in the light.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And DC talk is headlining.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_05]: My other three are going to be new spoilers.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_05]: With Kooji, which Peter Furler.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Peter Furler is.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Horses.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_05]: My no Michael Tates with DC talk still.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_06]: God is not dead.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Not that.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't like.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_06]: We talk about that.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_06]: That's another level of camp from over a lot of younger kids.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Relay K would be.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Would be there.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I love your line K.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Damn, wow, we had some similar.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, aside from the Jennifer Nat,

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_06]: the other stuff, I'm totally.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, syncing up with you, totally.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh man.

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_05]: The third one is hard because I could go

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Jennifer Naps.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_05]: She's my girl.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I could go audio adrenaline.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_05]: That would be a fun, fun concert.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I like talk Nelson.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Did I do either of you listen to Hawk Nelson?

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I did not.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I was familiar.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I heard I heard of Hawk Nelson, but I didn't listen.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So you can't seem.

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and okay, my last decision that I have to make jars of clay.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to fall in love with you.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Me, I think you do it some jars of clay.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would be in the crowd at your festival.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Amazing.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_05]: You would be in the light.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I would be in the light.

[01:06:57] I would be in the light.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_05]: What's the cheesy merch line for?

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, my merch line is were you in the light?

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_05]: There you go.

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_05]: There you go.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_05]: 24, whatever.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like were you there?

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Were you in the light?

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Or um, with all the all the bands had lining.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But I have to decide my three.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Wait, okay, DC talk.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Reliant K.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Who else did I say?

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_05]: News boys.

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and then I'm gonna go.

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna go Jennifer now.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I interviewed her.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm obsessed with her right now.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_05]: That's okay.

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_05]: That's okay.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_05]: That's fair.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_05]: That's fair.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Cool.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, Neil.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_06]: This is a good question by the way.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a playlist.

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, okay.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_06]: The audience members are all like having to go through

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_06]: their right now.

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, all right.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Mine would be.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so let me actually I'm gonna skip ahead

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: because I don't have the name of the festival yet.

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'll go with the headline or would be

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_04]: the Peter Ferler Phil Joel era of the new

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_04]: was boys back when you know, step up to the microphone

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and love Liberty disco where the big ones.

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm gonna go with the microphone.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be hands down to my head, headliner.

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I would be, that would probably cross over a little bit

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_04]: into the secular world and bring in.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_06]: You said there's a Christian vessel, Lee.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It is, but, but, but, hang on.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not, they're not quite the, well, they are.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Can you be very before she went up into the?

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Can you?

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_06]: One two one BOD is I'll be right.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You're gonna be a Christian in your song.

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_06]: He looked, Katy Perry now, which is great.

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, I mean, kind of.

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I heard her new album, I have issues but anyway,

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_06]: it would be, just like admitting it's the pop side.

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: No, but there's, there's other issues with Katy Perry that

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to get into right now, but

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: there would be 12 stones would be that kind of crossover.

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_07]: And I promise to me the sacrifice.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, 12 stones was being played on a lot of the secular hard rock

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_04]: stations.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_06]: What was the screamer band?

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they were still, yeah, they were, they were the ones

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: that the lead singer was in the big,

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_04]: have a netizens hit the guy back there screaming.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_05]: That's 12 stones.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's 12 stones.

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Nate, this is a great evangelist move because

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_05]: you look at all of these secular people,

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_05]: these sinners that are gonna come and then

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_05]: hear all of these Christian songs.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_05]: They're gonna hear a new voice do there.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know them?

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Have you not had any?

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know?

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So we've got the new voice headline,

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_04]: we've got 12 stones in there to come on

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and to kind of be to stay on that sort of

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: intense hard rock, you know, theme.

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna bring POD in.

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're gonna perform as well

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and to kind of to really bring it home,

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: we're gonna bring the early 2000s Hillsong United.

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I was wondering, a whole song would play into yours.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Nate was at Hillsong.

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I love it.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's another story for another time.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I'll talk about that on your podcast.

[01:10:26] Yes!

[01:10:26] Oh, my gosh.

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So that early 2000s, like Altrock, Hillsong United,

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_04]: back when like Hosanna came out.

[01:10:36] We're gonna perform again, please.

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_07]: All good, I love you.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And so, so we're gonna run the gamme.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: The secular kids are gonna get introduced

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_04]: to this whole world by because they see 12 stones there

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_04]: but then they're going to really be pulled into it

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_04]: through Hillsong United.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And after the next two years worship.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So the title, I guess, would be...

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm gonna perform one of those.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna be, we're gonna call it

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: cross over and the logo's gonna have a cross.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I guess.

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, Nate, yours is brilliant.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Mine is just like, what bands do I want to listen to?

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like gonna convert people.

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, there's gonna be a great altar call there.

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, exactly.

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then the slogan would be...

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I guess I would totally just going to rip off your festival

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_04]: but along those lines, like, I cross over.

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_07]: So that's amazing.

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow, I'm interested in planning evangelicals.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I should, hey, hey, harvest fest.

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I know you guys stopped but if you ever want to revive,

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_04]: give me a call.

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, we'll talk to Nate, he can't help you out.

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_05]: The one I write to is called Kingdombound so if that's, you know...

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, it was like creation and creation.

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember that.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I never went to any of those but all right.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, me neither.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, gal, I gotta go on.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, so DC talk is my headliner for sure, for sure.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, no, that was obsessive for me.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I'm gonna go with Switchfoot.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I have Switchfoot.

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I still like them.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I still enjoy Switchfoot.

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I enjoy the woman's solo stuff is so good.

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_06]: It's so good.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm gonna have my Switchfoot in there and then I feel like I need to throw

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_06]: in some Christian rap because I had my Christian rap.

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_06]: These, I don't like, till be that.

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Do I, I mean, what?

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_06]: As a DC talker of course there was Toby Mac was my favorite of the three people.

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_06]: But no, I actually was big into grits and big into cross movement at cross movement.

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, oh, which is those, you know, I picked grits or cross,

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I was more grits but cross movement was like, I knew all the all the songs.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, one of those too, haven't decided.

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: To the, oh, as coming out to with the gospel.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'll put it up to a pull for all of them which one.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_06]: You go with you one, do you guys want cross movement?

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, a great slidie guy's song.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, this is before La Cray, you know, before he was the guy on the scene or Andy Manay

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_06]: or whoever else came later.

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and then, uh, what do I go with for the other spot?

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I do like newsboys.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_06]: I do like, uh, P.O.D.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I have, I had to think through, um, this, like, I have to mill his down today.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Guys, so hard.

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_06]: This is so much on hard question.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe, maybe we'll put it on the Instagram post.

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_04]: What should Gale use for her festival?

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_04]: For her festival.

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_06]: This is like all across the board and my, my, my line for the festival would be this is your life

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and the tagline would be this who you want to be.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Nice. Yes.

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_04]: There we go.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's a fantastic line for just even closing off of, is this your life?

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it who you want to be?

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Because as we deconstruct, he's our good questions to ask ourselves.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And this was our life and there are pieces of it that are still who we are in our

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_06]: positive and there's pieces that we go.

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was my past and goodbye and I understand who younger me,

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_06]: appreciated this but that Christian music is staying over there and then we'll come out

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_06]: in the shower occasionally when they and I'll be like, I'm so sorry.

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just stuck in here. I have to make it really close.

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_04]: That's okay and then I pull out my phone and start playing Hillslong United.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you ever do that thing with your husband?

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Where? Because you know the same Christian music, you say a certain phrase and then it gets a song,

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_06]: a worship song or a hymn stuck in your head and then you're like, oh no, I'm so sorry.

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes. My friend and I made and my sister-in-law.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We made a playlist called cult classics and it's all of like,

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and I had it in my headphones and I'm like singing along.

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And my husband would start singing the guitar solo as we got to the part in the music,

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_05]: even though he's not even listening to the music just like, we both know it so well, it's like

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_05]: in in-grain to us. So yes, we love it. That is awesome.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm so glad that that was a really good on the improv two game and considering that Maggie,

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_06]: you love music and that is a big piece of your life.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Nate, well played. That was fun. We took people down there Christian music history for a little bit

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_06]: in their brains and be like, oh yeah, them, them. Who do we forget guys who do we forget?

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh we forget so we've got so many. There's so many.

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_06]: That's so many. Those wow CDs just go through what's going on the back.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow. Wow that was so cheesy.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Wow. The pun. So Maggie, where can people find you? How do like what's your tag on social

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: media and then obviously all of these links will go into the show notes but you know people sometimes

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: listen while they're driving and I don't advise going through show notes while you're driving.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So, please don't do that. You can find me on Instagram at Hello Under Score, Deconstructionists

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_05]: and yeah, that's really the only place that I am. So you can you can also email me

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_05]: if you would rather reach out that way. But yeah, I'm on Instagram and I have a link in my

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_05]: bio that can bring you to to my podcast to a couple episodes that are highlighted and if you

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_05]: want to be on the podcast there's a link to sign up there. Oh and also in my link in my bio

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I have a bunch of like resources for like sexed resources for coming out of purity culture,

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: women and podcasts that I try to highlight. So there's lots of good stuff there for people

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_05]: coming out of religion and looking for a safe place to land. So that's where you can find me.

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Awesome. That is great and your Instagram is just full of lots of really helpful stuff for

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_06]: people that are deconstructing. So there's both the Instagram we're full of information and

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_06]: you said the little, the amount of stuff you couldn't capture in Instagram. So you went on

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_06]: over to your podcast so those are both of those resources for people and those are fantastic.

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I get a test of it. I've been enjoying them and no matter how many stories I hear I'm always

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_06]: excited to hear who you're going to have next and and I learn so much listening to people tell

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_06]: their own stories and I'm surprised by that I guess because I'm like oh, it's not exactly my story

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_06]: but in the surprise that what note they tell gone that actually bring up a bunch of stuff for me.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you for providing this space for people to process. Yeah, thank you for listening

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and thank you both for having me. This has been such a nice conversation. I really appreciate it.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode of the full Mutuality podcast.

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