S2E16: Taking Christ out of Christmas — with Jessica Goforth and Zach Malm

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:06] But sometimes you feel like there's no place. There's no place in the end. You are the odd person out. You don't, there's no space to fit you in there. And feeling like, oh, that's where I am. Like I could locate myself through that exact Christmas story.

[00:00:19] So for maybe anyone listening who's also feeling like they, there's no space for them in evangelical Christmas stuff, maybe that piece of the story can still, can still see you and make you feel seen.

[00:00:31] A huge part of Christmas for so many people is without Jesus, I can totally do Christmas and not have Jesus. And that's fine because I did it for my whole life exclusively Jesus-ing. So let's try it the other way.

[00:01:00] Hi, I'm Gail.

[00:01:02] I'm Nate.

[00:01:02] And this is Full Mutuality.

[00:01:05] On today's episode, it's a Christmas episode.

[00:01:09] Yay.

[00:01:10] Yay.

[00:01:10] Merry Christmas.

[00:01:11] Merry Christmas everybody.

[00:01:13] Oh, that most wonderful time of the year where we're all running around to different places and holidays can be full of so much emotion and often joy, happiness, excitement, but also often less talked about is the anxiety, the stress of the holidays.

[00:01:30] And if you're, if you're listening to our podcast, probably the deconstruction of your faith related to how that ties into the holidays.

[00:01:38] So we wanted to have a conversation.

[00:01:40] We decided to invite a bunch of our friends in.

[00:01:43] And so that's what we've done.

[00:01:45] I won't preamble on this too long because we got a long conversation ahead.

[00:01:49] But on our podcast, we're going to have Jessica Goforth and Zach Malm.

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:57] Jessica is the host of the Leaving the Village podcast.

[00:01:59] So go check out her stuff.

[00:02:01] We'll put a link to it in the description.

[00:02:03] And Zach Malm is the co-host of the Veterans of Culture Wars podcast.

[00:02:08] And again, we'll put links to all of their stuff in the show notes.

[00:02:12] You can go check out their material.

[00:02:14] Zach is also a musician who has written quite a lot of Christmas music.

[00:02:20] And you can check out his stuff.

[00:02:22] We'll obviously, again, link to all of it in the show notes.

[00:02:24] But without further ado, here's our conversation with Jessica and Zach.

[00:02:34] I was making a listen to the one that was What Does Christmas Mean to You?

[00:02:39] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:41] So that would have been the most recent.

[00:02:45] No, no, no.

[00:02:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:46] Okay.

[00:02:46] The most recent was what I did with my kid.

[00:02:48] Yeah, that one was like the first one I did after like knowing for a fact that I wasn't a Christian anymore.

[00:02:57] And yeah, yeah.

[00:02:58] It had that line.

[00:03:03] What does it say?

[00:03:04] I'm not a big lyrics guy, but I do try to be true.

[00:03:09] I want them to be meaningful to me.

[00:03:11] But I hate reciting them.

[00:03:12] I've never just like stated a lyric, you know.

[00:03:15] But yeah, you know, I said, you know, Christmas has been stuck to me like glue, but Santa never knows what we've been through.

[00:03:24] And we're on the other side of certain truth.

[00:03:27] So tell me what does Christmas mean to you?

[00:03:32] And normally I don't try to do like just single syllable rhymes all the time.

[00:03:37] But in that one, I specifically was going for that.

[00:03:41] But yeah, I remember being terrified releasing that knowing like my family, my mom, my in-laws would hear it.

[00:03:48] And that line, we're on the other side of certain truth.

[00:03:51] I felt like was like giving it all away.

[00:03:53] Like letting them know that I left the team.

[00:04:00] But they didn't figure it out.

[00:04:04] That was an interesting song.

[00:04:06] Okay, that's all they got.

[00:04:08] Excellent.

[00:04:09] Yeah, I definitely felt here.

[00:04:12] That's what I did.

[00:04:13] That's so funny.

[00:04:15] I was giving a bit of Sufjan Stevens some of that energy there.

[00:04:21] Sure.

[00:04:22] I don't know if you would consider that a compliment or a...

[00:04:24] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:04:25] Yeah.

[00:04:25] Yeah, I enjoy Sufjan Stevens.

[00:04:27] I enjoy Kishibashi.

[00:04:29] So it was definitely giving me some of that.

[00:04:32] Sure.

[00:04:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:34] I haven't really listened to Sufjan in quite a while.

[00:04:39] I have some friends that were like in his band.

[00:04:44] And I was thinking the other day, I was like, I think sort of like in Pedro the Lion terms,

[00:04:53] having gone from being a secret of these yoke Christian to a hard to be ex-evangelical,

[00:05:01] I feel like my journey with Sufjan Christmas music is...

[00:05:06] I used to feel like I connected more with Sister Winter, and now it's Christmas Unicorn.

[00:05:13] The one that's like 17 minutes long and eventually just becomes Joy Division, Love Will Tears Apart.

[00:05:20] It's very extravagant and wonderful.

[00:05:23] Yeah.

[00:05:24] So my stuff doesn't sound like that.

[00:05:28] No, no, no.

[00:05:30] No, more like Christmas in the Room kind of vibes, I think.

[00:05:35] Yeah.

[00:05:37] The Tommy Wiseau film, The Room.

[00:05:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:43] No, the Sufjan Stevens song, Christmas in the Room, I think is the title of it or something like that.

[00:05:49] Oh, I can't recall the one.

[00:05:50] He's had so many Christmas albums.

[00:05:51] Yeah, he has had a lot of Christmas albums.

[00:05:53] I mean, because the first thing was like, hey, here's a five-disc set of Christmas stuff

[00:05:57] that I've been just privately making and sending to friends, but here you go, world,

[00:06:03] here's a hundred new Christmas songs.

[00:06:05] Have at it.

[00:06:07] And, you know, I have that CD set for sure.

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:11] But yeah, no, I mean, I started making Christmas stuff like a dozen years ago.

[00:06:18] I had some friends in like college years that they started putting out Christmas records

[00:06:24] and did a lot of them, started doing them like every year.

[00:06:30] And people that like are really into left of center Christmas music are like familiar with some of that stuff.

[00:06:36] And, you know, I just, I was attracted to the idea of like a format that I could play with it,

[00:06:47] like ready-made themes to build on.

[00:06:51] And then, so I did several things where I'd write a few, I'd do some covers.

[00:06:57] And then really the big change was recording the album I did called The Darkest Time of Year,

[00:07:06] which was recorded throughout 2017.

[00:07:13] So in the traumatized wake of the 2016 election,

[00:07:21] just figuring out like what any of this stuff,

[00:07:29] if I hold on to these beliefs,

[00:07:32] like as it got closer to Christmas,

[00:07:34] like the connection between Trump Christianity

[00:07:39] and my Christianity just felt weirder and weirder.

[00:07:44] And I didn't, I wasn't feeling the Christmas spirit.

[00:07:48] I remember like trying to write songs for it

[00:07:50] and talking with some friends.

[00:07:52] I'm like, yeah, I'm working on this Christmas album.

[00:07:53] It was like the summer.

[00:07:54] And like, and all the songs just turned out like really depressing.

[00:07:59] And like, I don't know, keep, keep trying.

[00:08:03] But like, I don't know, like the last song on the album

[00:08:05] was the last song I wrote.

[00:08:07] And that was like after my family canceled that Thanksgiving

[00:08:11] because we fought about Trump too much.

[00:08:14] And so that was a song that more like explicitly

[00:08:21] deals with where I was at there,

[00:08:23] there where, where, you know, I'm saying,

[00:08:27] I haven't felt the Christmas spirit yet.

[00:08:30] I'm stuck here in the year that never ends.

[00:08:32] I don't believe they'll make it great again,

[00:08:35] but I do believe we'll make it through this mess.

[00:08:39] And I don't know of any other like

[00:08:43] MAGA focused Christmas songs.

[00:08:50] But it was quite a journey for me putting those ideas on there.

[00:08:58] And then it ends with,

[00:08:59] I felt like I was like singing it to my parents at that point,

[00:09:02] singing at the end and said,

[00:09:03] if nothing else, we still have Christmas.

[00:09:07] If nothing else, we still have Jesus.

[00:09:10] And even if the meaning changes,

[00:09:12] if nothing else, we still have Christmas.

[00:09:14] And I liked that,

[00:09:18] that even if the meaning changes line,

[00:09:21] it's kind of unclear if it's referring to the meaning of Christmas

[00:09:25] or the meaning of Jesus.

[00:09:27] And it wasn't too much longer before we didn't still have Jesus.

[00:09:33] The meaning had changed significantly,

[00:09:37] but we do still have Christmas.

[00:09:39] I still host it.

[00:09:40] Still have Christmas.

[00:09:41] Christmas.

[00:09:41] And I think like that,

[00:09:43] that was,

[00:09:43] those were my thoughts when I was like,

[00:09:46] I want to do an episode on Christmas.

[00:09:48] And I want to do an episode on Christmas for those who are going through a faith transition.

[00:09:52] And it's funny,

[00:09:52] your album title,

[00:09:53] what is,

[00:09:54] or the darkest time of year as a concept.

[00:09:57] And you talking about the transition from,

[00:09:59] you know,

[00:10:00] Trump being elected in 2016 and how that influenced family and faith and the unraveling.

[00:10:05] And I think there's a whole new,

[00:10:07] new group of people that are starting in that journey,

[00:10:09] maybe who were too young for that,

[00:10:11] or who hadn't,

[00:10:11] we just were not mature enough to start grappling with those issues who are coming to that point.

[00:10:16] Things,

[00:10:17] the situations that unravel in life and the dominoes that align to get you there.

[00:10:21] And then Trump ends up,

[00:10:22] it's almost feels a little bit like a repeat just to a different group of people.

[00:10:27] And,

[00:10:27] but,

[00:10:28] you know,

[00:10:28] I guess that's the fortunate thing is there are people who have gone through this before that could maybe speak some,

[00:10:35] some sense of not being alone into that moment of trying to discover Christmas and not feeling the joy and feeling like the faith shift that could be so startling or a lack of faith or like having your faith pulled out from under you.

[00:10:49] And so basically I saw,

[00:10:52] we were chatting with Jessica,

[00:10:53] with our friend Jessica.

[00:10:54] Um,

[00:10:55] and,

[00:10:56] and I should just do the introductions.

[00:10:57] Yeah.

[00:10:57] Who are we?

[00:10:58] Jessica.

[00:10:59] Who are we?

[00:11:00] I mean,

[00:11:00] I was thinking we'd probably just,

[00:11:01] just do like a preamble again.

[00:11:03] We will probably preamble this and then cut this part up.

[00:11:06] And,

[00:11:06] and,

[00:11:07] and introduce you all in the,

[00:11:08] in the preamble.

[00:11:10] But yeah,

[00:11:11] we wanted,

[00:11:11] we just,

[00:11:12] uh,

[00:11:12] really quickly say our names and then,

[00:11:14] yeah.

[00:11:15] Um,

[00:11:15] I'm Zach.

[00:11:16] I'm new here at Shiz University.

[00:11:20] We were having a whole wicked conversation before this.

[00:11:24] Uh,

[00:11:26] yeah,

[00:11:26] yeah,

[00:11:26] no,

[00:11:27] I'm,

[00:11:27] I'm,

[00:11:27] I co-host the podcast Veterans of Culture Wars.

[00:11:30] I was on,

[00:11:31] uh,

[00:11:32] with,

[00:11:32] with Nate and Gail a couple of years ago talking about how I,

[00:11:37] um,

[00:11:39] set Mark Driscoll's career slightly off.

[00:11:43] You helped destroy Mars Hill is how you enjoy it in your veterans of culture.

[00:11:47] Mars Hill's gone,

[00:11:48] but Mark's doing just fine.

[00:11:50] Oh yeah.

[00:11:51] Which is the ultimate bummer of it all.

[00:11:53] But,

[00:11:54] um,

[00:11:55] yeah,

[00:11:55] that was,

[00:11:55] that was a thing that I was involved with destroying.

[00:11:59] And yeah,

[00:12:00] I've been making Christmas music for quite a while and going through a faith transition in the midst of that,

[00:12:06] which sort of came through in the songs I've written and how I think about Christmas now.

[00:12:14] So,

[00:12:15] yeah.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] And I'm Jessica Goforth.

[00:12:19] I am the host of Leaving the Village podcast.

[00:12:22] And Gail and Nate are my very dear friends who I just love being invited into these conversations because it's so much fun.

[00:12:31] And that's so picking off where I think when we talked about Wicked last time together,

[00:12:35] at the end of that,

[00:12:36] you know,

[00:12:36] we stopped,

[00:12:37] we stopped recording and the conversation came up and you were like,

[00:12:40] ah,

[00:12:41] Christmas this year is just,

[00:12:43] it's,

[00:12:44] it's just so,

[00:12:45] ah,

[00:12:45] like you're just so much emotion behind what you just expressing of how,

[00:12:49] how much it weighed on you this year.

[00:12:51] It just felt like intense.

[00:12:53] And then that,

[00:12:54] that got me thinking,

[00:12:55] we haven't done an episode on the holidays.

[00:12:57] That's not just a perky holiday.

[00:12:58] I mean,

[00:12:58] I don't think we've ever done a perky holiday episode,

[00:13:00] but I thought I like going into the dark stuff.

[00:13:03] I like going into the,

[00:13:04] the emotional side of things.

[00:13:06] And I think the holidays can be such a trigger for the heavier things for the,

[00:13:10] for the ships that go on in life.

[00:13:12] And those sometimes are the pieces we don't talk about and that people need to feel like they're not alone.

[00:13:17] And so that's,

[00:13:18] I,

[00:13:19] from what you said,

[00:13:20] Jessica,

[00:13:20] and then actually,

[00:13:21] I think I came across you,

[00:13:22] Zach,

[00:13:23] quoting that line from your song.

[00:13:25] What does Christmas mean to you?

[00:13:26] And you said,

[00:13:26] this was the start of your deconstruction and you talking out loud about it in relation with Christmas.

[00:13:32] And those two pieces connected in my head.

[00:13:34] I'm like,

[00:13:34] oh,

[00:13:34] we need to do an episode.

[00:13:35] I'll see if I could drag Zach into it and Jessica into it.

[00:13:38] And then we can have a conversation about,

[00:13:41] um,

[00:13:41] and,

[00:13:42] and considering that all of us have,

[00:13:44] have been on this journey for a little while too.

[00:13:45] I thought it would be interesting to talk about,

[00:13:48] uh,

[00:13:48] what it's like for us now.

[00:13:50] Or,

[00:13:50] and even,

[00:13:51] I know before I got on this call,

[00:13:52] I,

[00:13:53] I went through my history to see different times.

[00:13:55] I've talked about Christmas,

[00:13:57] uh,

[00:13:57] on my page full mutuality,

[00:13:58] just talking,

[00:13:59] looking through my own faith shift and how that came out very differently in different years.

[00:14:04] And what hit me hard,

[00:14:05] um,

[00:14:05] just to refresh myself because every year it's different things that kind of,

[00:14:09] of how I feel about things.

[00:14:11] So I just,

[00:14:11] I wanted to throw it out.

[00:14:13] Maybe we could start off with,

[00:14:15] um,

[00:14:15] I'd love to hear,

[00:14:17] like,

[00:14:17] I know you've kind of touched on this already,

[00:14:19] Zach,

[00:14:20] for you,

[00:14:20] but like you were talking about 2016 being a big shift for you and maybe 2017.

[00:14:24] Am I accurate in that being where you kind of were,

[00:14:27] Oh,

[00:14:27] I don't think the Jesus thing is still intact anymore.

[00:14:30] Is that accurate to where you were at and where your things started to shift for you?

[00:14:35] Um,

[00:14:35] I,

[00:14:35] I wasn't at that place until a little later.

[00:14:39] Um,

[00:14:40] 2018,

[00:14:40] 2019,

[00:14:41] like my,

[00:14:42] my dad died in mid 2018 and that plus Trump was kind of the two main catalysts.

[00:14:50] Like,

[00:14:51] um,

[00:14:51] um,

[00:14:54] so I,

[00:14:55] I,

[00:14:55] I think I was,

[00:14:56] I was done with Jesus,

[00:15:00] um,

[00:15:02] early to mid,

[00:15:03] um,

[00:15:05] Um,

[00:15:07] 2018 was just like,

[00:15:08] like my dad dying,

[00:15:09] just like broke my brain.

[00:15:10] I couldn't process deconstruction things.

[00:15:12] I was just trying to deal with the grief of that.

[00:15:17] Um,

[00:15:19] but,

[00:15:19] uh,

[00:15:22] once,

[00:15:23] once I was able to,

[00:15:24] to work through enough of that,

[00:15:26] um,

[00:15:27] I just,

[00:15:28] there was a lot of just like,

[00:15:30] I can't keep like showing up on Sundays and playing music.

[00:15:33] And yeah,

[00:15:34] at least I didn't like,

[00:15:35] at that point I wasn't like singing.

[00:15:37] I was just like in the band and like,

[00:15:39] cause a lot of it was like,

[00:15:39] I can't sing these words.

[00:15:42] Um,

[00:15:43] but,

[00:15:44] uh,

[00:15:45] yeah,

[00:15:45] Zach,

[00:15:45] I don't know if you know,

[00:15:46] but my son passed away when he was 15 months old,

[00:15:50] about 10,

[00:15:51] 11,

[00:15:51] almost 12 years ago.

[00:15:53] And,

[00:15:53] um,

[00:15:54] yeah,

[00:15:54] none of those songs landed the same.

[00:15:57] Yeah.

[00:15:57] Ever again.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] And,

[00:15:59] and I,

[00:16:00] I,

[00:16:01] I,

[00:16:01] I kept running out and just ended up sitting in the parking lot.

[00:16:05] Absolutely having massive panic attacks.

[00:16:08] Couldn't take it.

[00:16:09] I,

[00:16:09] yeah,

[00:16:10] I,

[00:16:10] I,

[00:16:10] I've heard from so many people,

[00:16:12] people that have had panic attacks at church and for folks that have had an undisturbed faith life.

[00:16:21] They don't,

[00:16:22] I think most of them would never even think that that's a possible response to being in church.

[00:16:29] Like it's,

[00:16:29] it's the ultimate just cozy blanket place.

[00:16:32] It's where I go to talk to people once a week and hear about Jesus and everything's all good.

[00:16:38] And I'll go out to the lobby and get a coffee and blah,

[00:16:41] blah,

[00:16:41] blah.

[00:16:41] And how could anybody have this intense bodily reaction to,

[00:16:50] to this wonderful place?

[00:16:52] Um,

[00:16:52] yeah,

[00:16:52] no,

[00:16:53] it's,

[00:16:53] it's kind of wild to,

[00:16:55] to hear how,

[00:16:55] how common that is.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] That's good for people who are on the other side where they have had,

[00:17:03] where maybe at one point it was the cozy blanket and everyone they know is still in that phase,

[00:17:07] but then they've had the other side of it.

[00:17:09] And they're like,

[00:17:10] does anyone else get,

[00:17:11] get what that is on this side of things?

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:14] And maybe feel like they're alone in that.

[00:17:16] And what you're saying,

[00:17:16] Zach,

[00:17:17] I think might be reassuring to a lot of people to be like,

[00:17:19] no,

[00:17:19] you're really not the only person who,

[00:17:21] who has had that experience.

[00:17:23] There's a lot of people who've had anxiety related to church.

[00:17:25] I think on my end,

[00:17:27] it's similar to yours and in different ways.

[00:17:30] Um,

[00:17:31] 2018 was the end of my 20 year marriage.

[00:17:33] Um,

[00:17:34] and that was a grief,

[00:17:36] a big grief of sorts,

[00:17:37] uh,

[00:17:37] not a death of an actual person,

[00:17:39] although I did lose my dad in 2014 and that was losing a dad is,

[00:17:43] yeah,

[00:17:44] it's a lot.

[00:17:45] Um,

[00:17:45] it's an ambiguous loss.

[00:17:47] Yeah.

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:49] And then a divorce is,

[00:17:51] it's one of those after 20 years is,

[00:17:53] yeah,

[00:17:54] it's very significant to your high school person.

[00:17:56] And,

[00:17:56] uh,

[00:17:57] I think that started to definitely tug on,

[00:18:00] on my whole faith construct because in the evangelical world,

[00:18:04] it was,

[00:18:04] there was so much emphasis on making that work,

[00:18:07] especially father of your kids.

[00:18:08] And,

[00:18:08] um,

[00:18:10] just the concept that God would want to intervene in that and the personal God

[00:18:14] concept.

[00:18:14] So ultimately God wants your marriage to be forever.

[00:18:18] So if there are issues,

[00:18:20] they can be worked through with enough faith and prayer.

[00:18:23] God is like,

[00:18:24] he answers prayer and faith,

[00:18:25] right?

[00:18:25] So you lean in,

[00:18:27] I leaned in.

[00:18:28] I remember just worshiping all the time.

[00:18:30] I didn't,

[00:18:31] I wasn't a big music person.

[00:18:33] I know some people were like,

[00:18:34] I'm probably talking to the worship leaders all around me right now in their

[00:18:38] churches.

[00:18:38] That was not me.

[00:18:39] Honestly,

[00:18:40] I hated most worship music my whole life.

[00:18:42] Oh,

[00:18:42] right.

[00:18:43] Right.

[00:18:43] You're the alternative music guy.

[00:18:44] I liked it at Mars Hill.

[00:18:46] Like being in a band there,

[00:18:48] we wrote our songs.

[00:18:49] We didn't,

[00:18:50] I had no awareness of what was popular on the CCM charts,

[00:18:54] you know?

[00:18:56] I was just like,

[00:18:57] I like the people who are like,

[00:18:59] Oh,

[00:19:00] they're doing those weird drama skits and interpretive dance.

[00:19:02] Why did they have to do that?

[00:19:03] Why can't they go back to the music?

[00:19:04] I was one of those people who was like,

[00:19:06] please,

[00:19:06] can we just cut the music side of things and put something different for those of us

[00:19:09] who are not always music,

[00:19:11] music.

[00:19:11] I don't want to hear 10 songs.

[00:19:13] Otherwise I'll just stay in my car and listen to 10 songs.

[00:19:15] If that's what I want to do.

[00:19:17] three songs repeated 10 times.

[00:19:19] That's right.

[00:19:19] That's what I was about to say.

[00:19:21] That's very common in church.

[00:19:22] Especially if you grew up Pentecostal.

[00:19:24] For 17 minutes solid that has three sentences.

[00:19:29] And that same chord progression played on pads while the pastor was preaching.

[00:19:34] Right.

[00:19:34] Just in the background.

[00:19:36] That's crazy.

[00:19:37] It's one sentence with one word switched out.

[00:19:40] Yes.

[00:19:40] Repeated a thousand times.

[00:19:42] Yes.

[00:19:43] I'm sorry.

[00:19:44] Righteousness.

[00:19:44] Righteousness is what I long for.

[00:19:46] I've been out too long.

[00:19:47] Holiness.

[00:19:48] Holiness is what I long for.

[00:19:50] Holy,

[00:19:50] holy,

[00:19:51] Holy.

[00:19:51] Sorry,

[00:19:52] everyone listening who's right now having traumatic flashbacks are up.

[00:19:55] People are twitching.

[00:19:56] They're like,

[00:19:57] stop it guys.

[00:19:58] Stop it.

[00:19:59] Whatever.

[00:19:59] We had an episode with Maggie where we actually played some clips of,

[00:20:04] you guys invented your own,

[00:20:05] like what was it?

[00:20:06] Creation Fest or whatever.

[00:20:07] Like your own music festival.

[00:20:09] Our own Christian music festival.

[00:20:10] That was terrible.

[00:20:11] Oh my goodness.

[00:20:11] I got lucky because when I was leading worship,

[00:20:14] we were in Texas.

[00:20:16] And so we were doing this whole like bluegrass-y thing.

[00:20:20] So it was much more straight.

[00:20:23] Like the actual songs and,

[00:20:26] and with a lot of lyrics and everybody got really into it.

[00:20:29] And there was a lot of clapping and stepping your feet.

[00:20:31] And like,

[00:20:32] it wasn't as,

[00:20:33] as touchy feely.

[00:20:35] So.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:36] Gotcha.

[00:20:36] Vineyard and four square.

[00:20:38] It was very emotional,

[00:20:40] very hands.

[00:20:41] Right.

[00:20:42] I couldn't raise my hands.

[00:20:43] After that,

[00:20:43] that phase came next.

[00:20:44] I was done with worship leading at that point when that really hit.

[00:20:49] And I remember going to church for the first time at a church that does that.

[00:20:54] And I was like,

[00:20:54] what is happening right now?

[00:20:56] I'll tell you to bring this to Christmas.

[00:20:58] What the fuck is happening?

[00:20:59] My favorite experience leading worship at an Acts 29 church was when I got to do just before Christmas.

[00:21:10] And I just decided we weren't going to play anything.

[00:21:13] We were just going to sing Christmas carols together,

[00:21:16] just voices,

[00:21:17] no instruments.

[00:21:18] And I,

[00:21:19] so I just picked out some of my favorites and we would just put up the lyrics and I started it out to give everybody the key.

[00:21:25] And then it was just the room,

[00:21:27] just everybody singing together.

[00:21:29] Yeah.

[00:21:30] That's beautiful.

[00:21:31] And that was fantastic.

[00:21:31] And that is the sort of thing that would move me today.

[00:21:34] I do miss that.

[00:21:34] I,

[00:21:34] that sounds so Acts 29.

[00:21:38] I don't know.

[00:21:39] It was so me.

[00:21:42] There's some fun in that.

[00:21:43] Yeah.

[00:21:44] No.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:44] And,

[00:21:45] and one thing I,

[00:21:45] you know,

[00:21:46] I came out of an Acts 29 church as well.

[00:21:48] And we did all sorts of fun things to experiment.

[00:21:52] Cause you know,

[00:21:53] it wasn't like we had,

[00:21:54] you know,

[00:21:56] we were being,

[00:21:57] um,

[00:21:58] you know,

[00:21:58] receiving a mandate from Sydney,

[00:22:00] Australia,

[00:22:01] telling us how we were supposed to be outlining our services.

[00:22:03] Oh yeah.

[00:22:04] So we could do whatever we wanted.

[00:22:06] We,

[00:22:06] you know,

[00:22:07] converted the room into like this,

[00:22:09] everybody sat facing the band in the middle of the room and bring out whatever random instruments,

[00:22:15] you know,

[00:22:16] we're like 20 minutes from New York city and there's a mandolin on,

[00:22:20] on stage.

[00:22:21] Cool.

[00:22:21] That that's fun.

[00:22:23] Um,

[00:22:24] but yeah,

[00:22:25] uh,

[00:22:26] I,

[00:22:26] I think for me,

[00:22:29] um,

[00:22:31] the,

[00:22:32] there were,

[00:22:33] there were different points.

[00:22:34] Like,

[00:22:35] uh,

[00:22:35] one of the things that I've mentioned both here and in other places,

[00:22:38] my sort of deconstruction journey took place over many,

[00:22:42] many years as I was taking different steps into,

[00:22:44] from out of different,

[00:22:45] out of some environments and into different environments.

[00:22:48] And,

[00:22:49] um,

[00:22:51] you know,

[00:22:52] Christmas,

[00:22:53] when I was growing up in,

[00:22:55] in the fundamentalist world,

[00:22:56] it didn't have that kind of magic.

[00:22:58] It was very,

[00:22:59] uh,

[00:23:00] strictly about,

[00:23:02] you know,

[00:23:03] we are only commemorating the birth of Jesus.

[00:23:06] And it was all about that in its entirety.

[00:23:11] The gift giving tradition was only because we are acquiescing to some aspects of the culture that aren't.

[00:23:18] Completely and utterly tainted.

[00:23:20] Uh,

[00:23:20] Fundy churches didn't do any production stuff around Christmas.

[00:23:23] No,

[00:23:23] they did.

[00:23:24] They did,

[00:23:24] but it was always,

[00:23:25] cause that's the thing is like,

[00:23:27] this is what's so hard for me is that my family and my churches and the churches I was in made that magic.

[00:23:35] It felt like pure and utter magic.

[00:23:41] So it was the best worship experience you've ever had combined with the candles,

[00:23:48] and the chili,

[00:23:49] and the jackets,

[00:23:50] and this cozy,

[00:23:51] and this,

[00:23:52] like,

[00:23:53] warmth of all the people coming,

[00:23:55] like the churches were packed full more than normal.

[00:23:58] And it was like,

[00:24:00] so much joy,

[00:24:02] and beauty,

[00:24:03] and the baby Jesus,

[00:24:05] and the,

[00:24:05] like,

[00:24:06] and the,

[00:24:06] the nativities,

[00:24:08] you know,

[00:24:08] with the,

[00:24:09] whoever was the newest mom with her baby.

[00:24:12] And,

[00:24:13] of course,

[00:24:14] and I remember when I had my first baby at 19,

[00:24:16] I was Mary,

[00:24:18] and I had my baby,

[00:24:19] and he was asleep,

[00:24:20] and I come up on stage,

[00:24:22] and he's like,

[00:24:22] out like a light,

[00:24:23] you know,

[00:24:23] he's like four months or something.

[00:24:25] And then,

[00:24:26] he wakes up,

[00:24:27] That's how you know God is real.

[00:24:27] And then,

[00:24:27] everybody starts singing,

[00:24:29] and he just reaches up,

[00:24:30] and touched my face.

[00:24:32] Oh,

[00:24:32] there was not a dry eye in that building.

[00:24:35] Not a single dry eye.

[00:24:37] Like,

[00:24:37] he just was like,

[00:24:38] mommy.

[00:24:40] Aww.

[00:24:41] I think,

[00:24:42] I think I developed,

[00:24:43] so those kinds of things.

[00:24:43] Yeah,

[00:24:44] I think I developed a bit of cynicism over the years.

[00:24:48] I didn't.

[00:24:49] That,

[00:24:49] like,

[00:24:49] it's just,

[00:24:50] part of it was,

[00:24:51] those,

[00:24:51] those productions.

[00:24:53] You were too involved.

[00:24:55] Yeah,

[00:24:56] A,

[00:24:56] I was very involved.

[00:24:58] In,

[00:25:00] in,

[00:25:00] in the music.

[00:25:02] The magic was gone.

[00:25:03] Yeah,

[00:25:03] and I was in all of the rehearsals,

[00:25:05] doing music,

[00:25:05] and I,

[00:25:05] I constantly wanted to,

[00:25:08] you know,

[00:25:09] act.

[00:25:10] It was something that I just,

[00:25:11] always wanted to do.

[00:25:12] And,

[00:25:12] and I got to do some in school,

[00:25:14] but in church,

[00:25:14] never could,

[00:25:15] there was never anything for me.

[00:25:18] Um,

[00:25:19] and,

[00:25:19] looking back,

[00:25:20] I'm wondering how much of that had to do with,

[00:25:22] the fact that I wasn't white.

[00:25:23] I'm still not white,

[00:25:24] which is actually even better,

[00:25:26] uh,

[00:25:27] now than,

[00:25:27] than it was back then.

[00:25:28] Um,

[00:25:30] but,

[00:25:31] I think I eventually got jaded,

[00:25:33] and then there was this,

[00:25:34] this circumstance that I still,

[00:25:35] to this day,

[00:25:36] get really,

[00:25:38] like,

[00:25:38] bothered about.

[00:25:39] Even more so now than I did back then,

[00:25:41] actually.

[00:25:42] Um,

[00:25:42] but,

[00:25:42] my dad was cast as,

[00:25:44] one of the,

[00:25:47] wise men,

[00:25:48] in,

[00:25:48] in a Christmas cantata.

[00:25:50] My dad can't act,

[00:25:51] and he didn't really want to,

[00:25:52] but they insisted,

[00:25:53] um,

[00:25:54] the,

[00:25:54] the director was super insistent on,

[00:25:56] on having him,

[00:25:57] uh,

[00:25:58] act.

[00:25:59] Because wise men came from the East.

[00:26:01] Exactly.

[00:26:02] And what,

[00:26:02] yeah,

[00:26:02] you know where that was going.

[00:26:03] Sorry.

[00:26:04] And what they had him do.

[00:26:05] I jumped ahead of your story.

[00:26:05] So he was,

[00:26:07] he was,

[00:26:07] you know,

[00:26:07] struggling to memorize all of the lines,

[00:26:09] and so what they ended up doing was having him recite a few of the lines,

[00:26:12] and then he would just pray in Japanese.

[00:26:15] They just had him up on stage praying in Japanese.

[00:26:18] And I always felt like that's weird,

[00:26:21] because,

[00:26:21] you know,

[00:26:22] me,

[00:26:23] the,

[00:26:23] the young Bible nerd in high school was like,

[00:26:26] but that's not accurate to the story in the Bible.

[00:26:31] They weren't coming from Japan.

[00:26:35] There would have been no way for them to reach,

[00:26:38] uh,

[00:26:38] the,

[00:26:39] the,

[00:26:39] the Palestine,

[00:26:41] you know,

[00:26:43] I mean,

[00:26:43] it could be worse.

[00:26:45] I,

[00:26:45] they came on camels.

[00:26:47] I firmly recall seeing one performance at a church as a kid where one of the wise men was just a white guy doing an Apu accent.

[00:26:55] Like he literally was just doing Apu.

[00:26:58] Of course.

[00:26:59] I remember lines from it to this day.

[00:27:02] I knew the guy,

[00:27:04] like he used to rent a room in our house.

[00:27:06] Um,

[00:27:07] but you know,

[00:27:08] I,

[00:27:09] I have a little bit of both here.

[00:27:12] So,

[00:27:12] so Nate,

[00:27:13] I also had that experience of,

[00:27:15] we don't do the jolly.

[00:27:17] We don't do the,

[00:27:19] the,

[00:27:19] the goofy,

[00:27:20] uh,

[00:27:21] things about Christmas time.

[00:27:22] It is the reverent Christmas and we don't do Santa.

[00:27:25] I remember asking my parents when I was like eight or something,

[00:27:28] like,

[00:27:28] how come like we never talk about Santa?

[00:27:31] And like,

[00:27:32] oh yeah,

[00:27:32] they invented Santa to,

[00:27:33] so they could remove Jesus.

[00:27:36] Um,

[00:27:37] but like Santa just didn't get brought up.

[00:27:40] Like I was aware that he was out there in the cultural lexicon.

[00:27:44] I was,

[00:27:45] I was not,

[00:27:46] uh,

[00:27:47] aware of the practice of like writing a letter to Santa or going to the mall and getting your picture with Santa or any of that stuff.

[00:27:54] It just,

[00:27:54] it just didn't exist in our family.

[00:27:57] did they bring up that Santa and Satan have the same letters and that they're both red?

[00:28:01] Did you hear that?

[00:28:02] I didn't hear that part,

[00:28:03] but,

[00:28:04] but my,

[00:28:05] my,

[00:28:06] my parents' business.

[00:28:07] Evangelical church where you win.

[00:28:09] Come on.

[00:28:10] The,

[00:28:10] the kind of evangelical church to perform a Christmas kids musical.

[00:28:14] Uh,

[00:28:14] and my parents' business supplied those musicals for.

[00:28:19] GT and the Halo Express.

[00:28:20] Absolutely.

[00:28:21] We definitely did that one.

[00:28:24] I'm more of a Kathy Hill guy.

[00:28:24] So,

[00:28:26] wise guys in starry skies,

[00:28:27] Dr.

[00:28:28] Newhart's Christmas cure.

[00:28:29] Don't be afraid.

[00:28:30] Brigade.

[00:28:31] Um,

[00:28:32] salty in the singing song.

[00:28:33] That was,

[00:28:34] that wasn't a Christmas one.

[00:28:35] And that wasn't by Kathy Hill.

[00:28:36] That's,

[00:28:36] that's by the retinas.

[00:28:38] One that we did.

[00:28:39] shoot.

[00:28:40] It was like,

[00:28:40] I guess we like sheep as in the Christmas ones.

[00:28:41] I'm so unfamiliar with all of this.

[00:28:42] Like I got patch the pirate.

[00:28:44] That's,

[00:28:44] that's what we got.

[00:28:46] That's about,

[00:28:46] but like,

[00:28:47] you know,

[00:28:47] I would act in these things and every single one of these has the same formula because kids

[00:28:51] are going to be actors.

[00:28:52] There's always like a group of kids and then there's one kid from like a broken home.

[00:28:57] That's like,

[00:28:57] what's the big deal about Christmas anyway?

[00:29:00] I mean,

[00:29:01] presents are cool,

[00:29:02] but like,

[00:29:02] that's it.

[00:29:03] And like,

[00:29:03] wait a minute.

[00:29:04] Yes.

[00:29:05] Oh,

[00:29:05] that's every script.

[00:29:06] Jesus.

[00:29:07] Jesus.

[00:29:08] I don't know about that.

[00:29:10] I'm all about the presents.

[00:29:12] Who needs Jesus?

[00:29:14] Oh,

[00:29:14] wow.

[00:29:14] That's every script.

[00:29:16] We had that script too.

[00:29:17] every single one.

[00:29:17] you know,

[00:29:18] like our fundie church didn't have GT,

[00:29:19] but I remember these plays in fun.

[00:29:21] Yeah.

[00:29:21] Yeah.

[00:29:22] It's the same thing every time.

[00:29:23] I remember doing was this like old janitor that was like,

[00:29:27] had lost his family.

[00:29:29] And so he was all crotchety and all the toys come to life and like,

[00:29:33] tell him the real meaning of Christmas.

[00:29:36] Oh,

[00:29:37] that sounds.

[00:29:37] Every single one has a song about the real meaning of Christmas.

[00:29:40] I'll tell you that.

[00:29:41] Yeah.

[00:29:41] Although toys coming to life,

[00:29:43] that would never have flown in my church.

[00:29:45] That's,

[00:29:45] that sounds like the toys were demon possessed.

[00:29:49] No,

[00:29:50] no,

[00:29:50] they're telling the real story.

[00:29:52] They're trying to explain that they are gifts because they're honoring the

[00:29:57] real gift,

[00:29:58] which is Jesus.

[00:29:59] See,

[00:30:00] that sounds very evangelical to me.

[00:30:02] That sounds like,

[00:30:02] I don't know,

[00:30:03] maybe just the way I'm hearing it.

[00:30:04] It wasn't quite as fundy for you.

[00:30:05] Yeah.

[00:30:06] That wouldn't have flown in the fundy circles because toys coming to life.

[00:30:09] That's like already imagination.

[00:30:11] Exactly.

[00:30:12] I need to find it.

[00:30:13] Cause it was,

[00:30:14] I had,

[00:30:15] we had like the cassette tape for years and I remember listening to it and I

[00:30:19] knew all the songs and there was a solo in there by one of the toys.

[00:30:22] Oh,

[00:30:23] I wanted that solo.

[00:30:24] So bad.

[00:30:25] And I got it.

[00:30:26] And I was like,

[00:30:27] made my Christmas thing.

[00:30:28] I was like 12.

[00:30:30] So did,

[00:30:31] so your parents,

[00:30:32] sorry,

[00:30:32] Zach,

[00:30:33] your parents distributed the music.

[00:30:34] Were you ever in any of the plays yourself?

[00:30:36] Did you ever act?

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] No,

[00:30:38] I was in the,

[00:30:39] don't be afraid brigade.

[00:30:40] I was in go,

[00:30:41] go Jonah,

[00:30:41] which was not a Christmas one.

[00:30:43] And I got to be the host of the,

[00:30:47] uh,

[00:30:47] the Bible tells me so show Richard.

[00:30:50] Awesome.

[00:30:50] I've heard that one.

[00:30:51] Um,

[00:30:52] also written by Kathy Hill.

[00:30:53] Uh,

[00:30:54] she's been a dream guest of the podcast.

[00:30:56] Uh,

[00:30:56] but I also think if she listened to any of the podcast,

[00:31:00] she would refuse to come on.

[00:31:04] You're like,

[00:31:05] why do you want me on this podcast again?

[00:31:07] This doesn't really fit together.

[00:31:08] And like,

[00:31:09] it's childhood nostalgia.

[00:31:10] That's what this is about.

[00:31:11] When it comes to salty,

[00:31:12] salty is fine.

[00:31:14] Colby,

[00:31:14] the computer was so much better.

[00:31:17] Colby.

[00:31:18] Yeah.

[00:31:18] I met Colby.

[00:31:19] Uh,

[00:31:20] it was,

[00:31:21] I have a picture with Colby,

[00:31:22] uh,

[00:31:23] when I was like 10,

[00:31:25] uh,

[00:31:25] big moment for me.

[00:31:27] Uh,

[00:31:27] yeah,

[00:31:27] no,

[00:31:28] Colby,

[00:31:29] Colby performed at my parents,

[00:31:30] uh,

[00:31:30] annual worship conference that,

[00:31:32] that they would put on through their business,

[00:31:34] like take over a ballroom at the,

[00:31:37] the red lion hotel and bought in a Bellevue.

[00:31:40] And I'd help set it up and do all that.

[00:31:43] They had,

[00:31:43] they had Steven Curtis Chapman perform there before he was huge.

[00:31:47] Uh,

[00:31:47] wow.

[00:31:47] La la la la live out loud.

[00:31:51] But,

[00:31:51] uh,

[00:31:52] Oh,

[00:31:52] Steven Curtis Chapman gets stuck in my head.

[00:31:54] It's like the worst.

[00:31:55] Cause it's never getting out.

[00:31:56] Like it just too,

[00:31:57] too catchy.

[00:31:58] Yeah.

[00:31:58] His music is very,

[00:31:59] not my favorite voice actor.

[00:32:02] I can't imagine.

[00:32:03] Um,

[00:32:04] wait,

[00:32:04] he played,

[00:32:05] he currently plays Baloo.

[00:32:07] Uh,

[00:32:07] he plays Baloo.

[00:32:08] He's been Baloo for like the last 15 years.

[00:32:12] Seriously.

[00:32:12] Yeah.

[00:32:13] Wow.

[00:32:13] Even in like the,

[00:32:14] the,

[00:32:15] the,

[00:32:15] the Chippendale rescue Rangers movie that the Lonely Island did a couple of years ago on Disney plus.

[00:32:20] He's Baloo in that.

[00:32:22] I did not know.

[00:32:23] Yeah.

[00:32:23] It's kind of wild.

[00:32:24] Fun facts.

[00:32:24] Yeah.

[00:32:25] He's,

[00:32:25] he's no Phil Harris.

[00:32:27] Uh,

[00:32:31] yeah.

[00:32:32] Yeah.

[00:32:32] So like the,

[00:32:34] the Christmas musicals,

[00:32:35] like Christmas was such an extended season for me.

[00:32:38] Like everybody's talking like,

[00:32:39] Oh,

[00:32:39] like,

[00:32:40] like October and we're seeing Christmas stuff out.

[00:32:43] Dude.

[00:32:44] Christmas was September for me as a kid.

[00:32:46] Cause that's when all the churches were ordering their musicals.

[00:32:49] And so that was the Christmas season,

[00:32:52] uh,

[00:32:53] for their business.

[00:32:54] And,

[00:32:55] and then from then on,

[00:32:57] you know,

[00:32:57] Christmas was on my mind.

[00:32:58] And then my dad would go,

[00:33:00] like all of our gifts were like from garage sales and stuff.

[00:33:03] And he'd go year round.

[00:33:04] And he was,

[00:33:05] he was looking for Christmas presents all year round.

[00:33:08] Um,

[00:33:09] so,

[00:33:10] so did Christmas have a magic component to it?

[00:33:13] Considering that you were helping with the business stuff and there was a

[00:33:16] calendar year and it stretched out and long,

[00:33:18] or you're saying as a big,

[00:33:19] a mixed bag.

[00:33:19] That's been part of the deconstruction of Christmas for me is embracing the

[00:33:23] magic stuff,

[00:33:25] the international folklore stuff,

[00:33:27] the Santa-ness of it all.

[00:33:29] Um,

[00:33:30] being like a huge part of Christmas for so many people is without Jesus,

[00:33:35] I can totally do Christmas.

[00:33:38] And not have Jesus.

[00:33:40] And that's fine.

[00:33:41] Cause I did it for my whole life exclusively Jesus-ing.

[00:33:46] So let's try it the other way.

[00:33:48] Yeah.

[00:33:49] Um,

[00:33:49] yeah,

[00:33:50] not,

[00:33:50] not much magic.

[00:33:51] I remember seeing there,

[00:33:54] there's a,

[00:33:55] you know,

[00:33:55] Babar the elephant.

[00:33:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:58] There,

[00:33:58] there's,

[00:33:58] there's a book of like Babar meets father Christmas.

[00:34:02] And,

[00:34:03] uh,

[00:34:03] uh,

[00:34:04] I remember seeing like an animated version of that,

[00:34:07] like at my grandparents and he like,

[00:34:11] like his kids like lose their letter that they're going to send to him or

[00:34:15] something.

[00:34:15] So he goes up and,

[00:34:16] and like in,

[00:34:17] in this world,

[00:34:18] like I said,

[00:34:19] those books are Belgian,

[00:34:20] I think.

[00:34:20] And I,

[00:34:21] so I think it's like a French idea of father Christmas where like he lives

[00:34:24] inside a mountain and they had like this,

[00:34:27] like Wes Anderson,

[00:34:28] like cross cut of the whole factory that you see as if the mountains cut in

[00:34:33] half and all the different rooms where things are happening.

[00:34:36] And,

[00:34:36] and,

[00:34:38] and I just thought that was like the neatest thing ever.

[00:34:41] Like a,

[00:34:42] like a Richard scary sort of vision of,

[00:34:44] of,

[00:34:44] of,

[00:34:45] of,

[00:34:45] of,

[00:34:45] of Santa Claus.

[00:34:47] And,

[00:34:48] uh,

[00:34:49] I remember thinking that was really magical.

[00:34:51] I remember thinking the,

[00:34:54] uh,

[00:34:55] the,

[00:34:55] the,

[00:34:56] the colored pencil animation from the UK,

[00:34:58] the,

[00:34:58] the,

[00:34:59] the Raymond Briggs,

[00:35:00] the snowman from like 1982.

[00:35:03] Um,

[00:35:04] that is absolutely magical.

[00:35:06] I,

[00:35:06] I covered a song from that on the,

[00:35:08] on the album that I did.

[00:35:10] Uh,

[00:35:10] that's still like my favorite Christmas movie.

[00:35:13] Um,

[00:35:16] but yeah,

[00:35:16] that,

[00:35:16] that stuff had magic,

[00:35:18] like the media of,

[00:35:20] of Christmas would have magic.

[00:35:23] Um,

[00:35:25] the,

[00:35:25] the,

[00:35:25] the rituals,

[00:35:27] those always feel magical to me.

[00:35:29] Like the,

[00:35:29] the,

[00:35:30] the whole,

[00:35:31] I don't know.

[00:35:31] I don't know about you,

[00:35:32] but when I am putting ornaments on a tree,

[00:35:36] in my head,

[00:35:37] I'm hearing a,

[00:35:38] the specific album that my parents would have playing when we put the ornaments on the tree when I was a kid.

[00:35:45] 100%.

[00:35:46] So actually,

[00:35:47] what one is it?

[00:35:48] Go ahead.

[00:35:48] Zach,

[00:35:49] uh,

[00:35:50] for,

[00:35:50] for myself.

[00:35:50] And it's interesting because as a Canadian,

[00:35:53] we have Thanksgiving in October,

[00:35:55] I know Americans do it much later than you guys do it at the end of November.

[00:35:58] And so I put my Christmas trip sometimes,

[00:36:02] but I mean,

[00:36:02] American Thanksgiving can fall for really late.

[00:36:04] This year fell late in November.

[00:36:06] Um,

[00:36:07] my dad,

[00:36:07] uh,

[00:36:08] his birthday was,

[00:36:09] uh,

[00:36:09] November 27th.

[00:36:10] And he,

[00:36:10] and so since he's passed and he,

[00:36:13] like to my sister and I is such a representative of Christmas in our brains.

[00:36:17] So she was like,

[00:36:18] we're going to use his birthday.

[00:36:19] We're going to start a new tradition and use his birthday to put up the,

[00:36:21] the Christmas tree.

[00:36:22] And a bunch of my American friends like,

[00:36:24] you can't put up your tree on the 27th.

[00:36:25] I'm like,

[00:36:26] this is my dad's birthday and I'm Canadian.

[00:36:27] So no,

[00:36:28] I'll do what I want.

[00:36:29] Thanksgiving is almost always over by September.

[00:36:32] Yeah.

[00:36:33] November 27th.

[00:36:34] We started this as a new tradition.

[00:36:35] My daughter's birthday is that day.

[00:36:37] Yeah.

[00:36:37] This is our new Christmas tradition.

[00:36:39] My daughter,

[00:36:40] myself and my sister all put up our Christmas trees this year on my dad's birthday.

[00:36:43] I'm like,

[00:36:44] this is going to be our new thing.

[00:36:45] And we decorated it.

[00:36:46] And of course I had the albums on that he used to sing,

[00:36:49] which were Bing Crosby,

[00:36:50] Dean Martin.

[00:36:51] He's Italian.

[00:36:52] So it was,

[00:36:52] it was those guys.

[00:36:54] And that is,

[00:36:55] to me is the Christmas music.

[00:36:57] It was like deeply the,

[00:36:58] although we did,

[00:37:00] we were talking about wicked before,

[00:37:01] but I wasn't a little bit of an Adina,

[00:37:04] am I going to say?

[00:37:05] Menzel.

[00:37:05] Mood.

[00:37:06] And then Nate found an album of hers from 2019,

[00:37:09] a Christmas album that we started listening.

[00:37:11] She's a good one.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:13] Yeah.

[00:37:13] And it had like a big,

[00:37:14] it had a big band.

[00:37:15] It had a big band feel.

[00:37:16] Not a fan of that first one.

[00:37:17] That is my kind of style for Christmas music.

[00:37:20] So I was really like just in the mood and like,

[00:37:22] Ooh,

[00:37:23] I rediscovered it.

[00:37:24] I discovered a new Christmas album to enjoy,

[00:37:26] to play along.

[00:37:27] But yeah,

[00:37:28] definitely setting up the tree.

[00:37:29] Okay.

[00:37:30] We're talking about young magic of when we were younger.

[00:37:33] Uh,

[00:37:34] some of the early Christmas memories.

[00:37:37] So I got saved,

[00:37:38] quote unquote,

[00:37:38] got saved.

[00:37:39] So it doesn't mean anything the same to me as it did when I was

[00:37:42] evangelical.

[00:37:43] But when I,

[00:37:44] you know,

[00:37:44] got indoctrinated,

[00:37:46] that's how I view it now.

[00:37:47] I was seven years old.

[00:37:48] Um,

[00:37:49] old and I was old because I,

[00:37:52] my parents,

[00:37:53] like I grew up in foster care,

[00:37:55] so they weren't giving me that from,

[00:37:57] you know,

[00:37:57] most people who grew up in Christian homes,

[00:37:58] they were probably four years old.

[00:38:00] Wasn't there old enough to piece the story together?

[00:38:02] I was a little older.

[00:38:03] My dad,

[00:38:04] uh,

[00:38:04] was taking me home on weekends and he took me to church.

[00:38:07] And then I,

[00:38:08] you know,

[00:38:08] it was that traumatized kid who at seven was given the story and I

[00:38:12] latched onto it.

[00:38:13] Um,

[00:38:13] but I have a memory in grade two before I really got super

[00:38:16] evangelical.

[00:38:17] Um,

[00:38:18] and I remember in our public school,

[00:38:20] they asked us to each say,

[00:38:22] what is the meaning of Christmas?

[00:38:23] So secular public school and a non,

[00:38:26] a very secular part of Canada.

[00:38:28] Everybody knows that.

[00:38:30] Presents.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:32] So it was really fun because we each gave a different answer and

[00:38:36] it was part of the grade twos presentation for the Christmas,

[00:38:39] uh,

[00:38:40] I guess concert they did was getting all the grade twos,

[00:38:43] up the seven year olds to come up and each of them say their

[00:38:45] line about Christmases to me.

[00:38:47] And I have this distinct memory of saying Christmas to me was the

[00:38:50] Christmas lights.

[00:38:51] That was my line.

[00:38:52] That was my,

[00:38:53] I think we each had to draw a picture too.

[00:38:55] And I had a picture of Christmas lights.

[00:38:57] And to this day,

[00:38:59] I love passing by houses that have really decked themselves out.

[00:39:03] Some,

[00:39:03] one of the things I love doing over the hall.

[00:39:05] I mean,

[00:39:05] I'm not great at it and I don't put the effort in.

[00:39:07] Um,

[00:39:07] but I like going to visit other people who have the energy and

[00:39:10] motivation to deck out their yards and,

[00:39:12] go visit the lights.

[00:39:14] And so for me,

[00:39:15] the what's fun is having that childhood memory of picking out something

[00:39:18] before it became all about Jesus.

[00:39:20] And using that as a reference to like,

[00:39:22] what did Christmas mean to me?

[00:39:24] Pre indoctrination.

[00:39:26] And I have something.

[00:39:27] I was like,

[00:39:27] the Christmas lights were a big thing to me.

[00:39:29] And then also with my mom,

[00:39:31] uh,

[00:39:31] we went to go watch home alone in theater.

[00:39:33] And I think those were my first free rule,

[00:39:35] free willie and home alone were the first Chris,

[00:39:37] like not Christmas free really wasn't Christmas.

[00:39:39] And those were first children's movies.

[00:39:40] I remember going to see in theater and home alone was the Christmas ones,

[00:39:43] both times.

[00:39:44] Um,

[00:39:45] and so what's fun for me,

[00:39:48] you know,

[00:39:48] for a long time as an evangelical,

[00:39:50] it was always about how to make Christmas,

[00:39:53] make sure Jesus stays the center,

[00:39:55] the reason for the season,

[00:39:57] the focus.

[00:39:58] It was always pushed at church constantly.

[00:40:00] It's like,

[00:40:01] you cannot lose that messaging or you're losing out on Christmas and the pressure to make sure you were not getting caught up in anything that wasn't Jesus as the main focus,

[00:40:10] uh,

[00:40:10] that you weren't sidelining Jesus.

[00:40:12] Cause if you pushed in anything else,

[00:40:13] you could push out Jesus because you needed to be front and center of everything.

[00:40:17] So I feel like,

[00:40:18] you know,

[00:40:19] it's me trying to grab onto those pieces that I was,

[00:40:22] that meant something to me,

[00:40:23] but I was kind of afraid to like too much because I didn't want it to push out Jesus or take my focus off of Jesus.

[00:40:29] But if I think back,

[00:40:30] it's fun.

[00:40:31] Now I,

[00:40:31] I,

[00:40:32] when I listened to the songs on the radio that are Christmas songs related to Jesus,

[00:40:37] talking about Jesus,

[00:40:38] I pushed myself as an evangelical to listen to more of those songs so that I could keep my focus.

[00:40:43] Right?

[00:40:43] Like Dean Martin,

[00:40:44] Bing Crosby,

[00:40:45] you guys,

[00:40:45] I gotta keep you more to the side,

[00:40:47] but like,

[00:40:47] let me make sure I'm putting the Jesus songs first.

[00:40:50] And,

[00:40:51] and it's funny as I deconstructed,

[00:40:52] I found,

[00:40:53] uh,

[00:40:53] I could listen to Jesus songs if they were sung by Whitney Houston or someone who's not evangelical.

[00:40:59] If they were not,

[00:41:00] if they were not,

[00:41:01] Bing Crosby or whatever.

[00:41:02] If they were doing it,

[00:41:03] I can handle it.

[00:41:04] But for a while I had a phase where I could not listen to Christians singing,

[00:41:07] Christian,

[00:41:08] like it just felt ick to me.

[00:41:10] I feel like part of my deconstruction,

[00:41:11] that whole world that used to mean a lot to me,

[00:41:14] there was so much hypocrisy popping out to me that listening to Christians singing Christian music

[00:41:18] just brought back way too much pressure,

[00:41:20] too much force,

[00:41:21] force feeding the Jesus stuff.

[00:41:23] Uh,

[00:41:24] it didn't,

[00:41:24] there was an authenticity missing to me,

[00:41:26] uh,

[00:41:27] and it didn't feel comfortable.

[00:41:28] It went from feeling lovely to feeling really gross.

[00:41:32] So you're not a fan of Chris Tomlin's?

[00:41:36] Yeah,

[00:41:37] Avalon,

[00:41:37] Avalon's Christmas album.

[00:41:39] If I heard some of that stuff,

[00:41:40] it would,

[00:41:40] yeah,

[00:41:40] it would give me like a very visceral reaction now.

[00:41:44] Um,

[00:41:44] can't listen to Oh Holy Night.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:48] Can or cannot?

[00:41:49] Cannot.

[00:41:50] I used to love that song and that one is also the hardest one for me now.

[00:41:54] I cannot take it anymore.

[00:41:55] I really struggle with it.

[00:41:56] Yes.

[00:41:57] I'm,

[00:41:58] I'm like,

[00:41:58] when I,

[00:41:59] there again,

[00:42:00] you know,

[00:42:00] similar to,

[00:42:01] to Gail,

[00:42:01] um,

[00:42:03] when there are,

[00:42:04] um,

[00:42:05] other,

[00:42:06] uh,

[00:42:07] like non-Christian artists who are performing the song,

[00:42:12] I'm,

[00:42:12] it's a little bit easier for me to swallow,

[00:42:15] but it's still one of those that just,

[00:42:17] it's so deeply embedded in that culture for me.

[00:42:22] Yeah.

[00:42:22] That it's really hard to listen to.

[00:42:24] I performed it so many times and just as a solo and everything.

[00:42:29] I just can't,

[00:42:30] I can't anymore.

[00:42:31] I think that,

[00:42:32] that,

[00:42:34] that,

[00:42:34] that,

[00:42:34] that piece,

[00:42:35] the taking Christ out of Christmas has been such a huge process for me.

[00:42:42] Like,

[00:42:42] it's just,

[00:42:43] I,

[00:42:44] I almost feel,

[00:42:45] um,

[00:42:46] a little thrill of rebellion about it this year.

[00:42:49] And whereas last year it was in a couple of years ago,

[00:42:52] it was just a lot of grieving,

[00:42:54] just like really,

[00:42:55] really sad.

[00:42:55] And I remember this year just being,

[00:42:57] just dreading that it's going to be Christmas.

[00:43:01] Like,

[00:43:01] this is the first time I've fully dreaded Christmas and just been like,

[00:43:05] Oh,

[00:43:06] I'm not ready.

[00:43:07] I'm not ready.

[00:43:07] I didn't turn on Christmas music until two days ago.

[00:43:11] Like that's how,

[00:43:12] that's how long it took me.

[00:43:13] I started early November.

[00:43:15] Well,

[00:43:16] I listened throughout the year though.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:19] Cause I'm like,

[00:43:20] I'm buying Christmas records.

[00:43:21] I'm getting kids throughout the year so that I can put together a mix to,

[00:43:25] to share.

[00:43:26] Cause you're used to doing it.

[00:43:29] Problems.

[00:43:30] Yeah.

[00:43:30] I'm more like Jessica.

[00:43:31] I have like a time where usually it's like,

[00:43:33] okay,

[00:43:33] December or first snowfall if it's in November.

[00:43:35] It's like,

[00:43:35] I get really sick of it fast.

[00:43:37] So if I turn it on too early,

[00:43:39] then by Christmas day,

[00:43:40] I'm like,

[00:43:41] Oh my God.

[00:43:42] The next day I'm like,

[00:43:43] everybody turn it off.

[00:43:45] No more Christmas music.

[00:43:46] And the kids are like,

[00:43:47] what?

[00:43:47] Yeah.

[00:43:47] I mean,

[00:43:48] I would get sick of it if it,

[00:43:49] if it was like the radio station that has a playlist of like 15 Christmas songs.

[00:43:55] Yeah.

[00:43:56] Mariah Carey's on 24 seven.

[00:43:58] Like my kids wanted it on every minute of every day,

[00:44:02] all day long in the house.

[00:44:03] It's all the same.

[00:44:04] On every speaker.

[00:44:04] Things it's,

[00:44:05] it's that stuff is so frustrating,

[00:44:07] but you know,

[00:44:08] you can't get away from it.

[00:44:09] You know,

[00:44:09] I,

[00:44:09] so many times you can hear the same song in 25 million different versions.

[00:44:15] I,

[00:44:15] Oh,

[00:44:16] I wish I could find it.

[00:44:17] That's why I get other things.

[00:44:18] Yeah.

[00:44:19] There you go.

[00:44:20] Of the same classics,

[00:44:21] you know,

[00:44:22] there,

[00:44:22] there was a,

[00:44:23] there was a funny Facebook meme that I saw that was something along the line of,

[00:44:28] in an alternate universe,

[00:44:29] Mariah Carey is in a store listening to me singing off key and is really frustrated of hearing my voice over and over and over on repeat or something like that.

[00:44:38] I was just laughing at imagining it.

[00:44:40] That's so funny.

[00:44:44] Thanks for listening to this podcast from the Dauntless Media Collective.

[00:44:47] If you enjoy what you're hearing,

[00:44:49] we think you'll also enjoy some of our other shows,

[00:44:51] which you can find by visiting dauntless.fm.

[00:44:55] Here's a sample from one of them.

[00:45:14] Hello deconstructionists.

[00:45:15] This is Maggie,

[00:45:16] the host of our podcast,

[00:45:17] where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion,

[00:45:22] along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:45:28] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid,

[00:45:31] and most of all,

[00:45:32] that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:45:34] You are good,

[00:45:35] you are loved,

[00:45:36] and you are worthy,

[00:45:37] just as you are.

[00:45:38] Hello deconstructionists.

[00:45:43] Subscribe to this podcast by visiting dauntless.fm.

[00:45:50] Hey everyone,

[00:45:52] I'm Jessica from the Leaving the Village podcast.

[00:45:54] I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show.

[00:45:58] We're so grateful that you've decided to spend your time with us.

[00:46:01] Seriously, Dan,

[00:46:03] Gail,

[00:46:03] Kathleen,

[00:46:04] Nate,

[00:46:05] Scott,

[00:46:05] and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support.

[00:46:12] I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation.

[00:46:15] Right now,

[00:46:17] there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective Discord server.

[00:46:22] If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive traditions they came from,

[00:46:29] please feel free to hop onto the server.

[00:46:31] If you don't know what Discord is,

[00:46:33] it's a place where communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of topics.

[00:46:38] In our Discord server,

[00:46:39] we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations,

[00:46:43] some meme sharing,

[00:46:45] therapeutic venting about whatever religious bullshit you're currently dealing with,

[00:46:49] and even a channel specifically devoted to talking about the latest episode of the podcast you're listening to right now.

[00:46:55] I hope you'll join us.

[00:46:56] You can log in directly to the Dauntless server

[00:46:59] by clicking on the link in the show notes

[00:47:01] or heading to dauntless.fm

[00:47:03] and clicking on the link in the top banner.

[00:47:06] See you there.

[00:47:08] I just,

[00:47:08] I'm a really big fan of this early 90s Miami booty bass Christmas song that I found this year

[00:47:17] by a group called Silence featuring Disco Rick

[00:47:21] called Santa Claus Coming.

[00:47:23] And,

[00:47:24] and,

[00:47:26] um,

[00:47:26] that is not a cover of a Bing Crosby song.

[00:47:29] And that is never going to be played on the Christmas radio station.

[00:47:34] And I like finding weird shit like that to listen to at Christmas time.

[00:47:38] So,

[00:47:38] and we don't do Thanksgiving anymore.

[00:47:41] Like we're just done with it.

[00:47:42] Like when my family canceled it and my dad died a few months later,

[00:47:46] so like we never got the do over.

[00:47:50] Thanksgiving is just always sad.

[00:47:52] And I'm not that interested in a colonizer holiday.

[00:47:57] Uh,

[00:47:58] so once,

[00:48:00] once Halloween's over,

[00:48:01] I am free to do Christmas stuff.

[00:48:05] And I,

[00:48:06] I would have a Christmas tree up like the first of Thanksgiving.

[00:48:12] If it wasn't going to die before then really the only thing holding me back is I,

[00:48:16] I go the day that our Christmas tree farm opens.

[00:48:20] I,

[00:48:20] the natural people.

[00:48:22] Those are your good.

[00:48:22] I was there like the second hour that they were opening their first day.

[00:48:26] Oh,

[00:48:26] oh,

[00:48:27] absolutely.

[00:48:28] No,

[00:48:28] no excuses.

[00:48:29] I am a fake one.

[00:48:30] Like where do you live?

[00:48:32] Seattle.

[00:48:32] Where are you Zach?

[00:48:33] We have lots of trees.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:42] I must.

[00:48:43] I'm a dog for a guy.

[00:48:45] Yeah,

[00:48:45] I bet.

[00:48:45] I figured you were,

[00:48:46] but I got to have my Frasier for every year.

[00:48:49] All right.

[00:48:49] You got to go pick that out.

[00:48:51] Go further.

[00:48:51] If you have to,

[00:48:52] to go get the one.

[00:48:53] Everybody in Texas is like,

[00:48:54] those are expensive.

[00:48:55] I'm like,

[00:48:55] y'all buy a pokey,

[00:48:59] nasty little Charlie Brown thingy.

[00:49:01] And you call that a tree and you pay like 15 bucks.

[00:49:04] And you think that's expensive.

[00:49:06] No,

[00:49:07] no,

[00:49:08] I get the real deal.

[00:49:09] You got to cut it down.

[00:49:10] And when you get it home,

[00:49:12] you got to put hot water.

[00:49:14] Yes.

[00:49:14] In the tree stand to get rid of that sap and open it up.

[00:49:17] Let it suck that up right away.

[00:49:19] And really you should get rid of your old tree stand and buy the German tree genie.

[00:49:25] Oh,

[00:49:26] uh,

[00:49:26] the greatest tree stand I've ever used.

[00:49:30] It's,

[00:49:30] it's incredible.

[00:49:32] I'll talk to my parents.

[00:49:33] My parents tend to go back and forth.

[00:49:35] Like they'll do,

[00:49:35] they'll do the fake thing for a few years.

[00:49:37] And then suddenly they'll be like,

[00:49:38] we need a real tree again.

[00:49:39] So I don't know how you can go,

[00:49:40] back and forth.

[00:49:41] Like you have like storage space allocated.

[00:49:44] Once you have a fake one.

[00:49:46] Yeah.

[00:49:46] Sometimes they just don't pull it out is what he's saying.

[00:49:48] Sometimes they don't pull it out and they,

[00:49:49] they'll go out and buy a real tree.

[00:49:53] And then my mom will get fed up with doing that for a few years and go back to pulling

[00:49:59] the fake tree out of the closet.

[00:50:01] I just,

[00:50:02] so now,

[00:50:03] and then my,

[00:50:04] with my parents getting a dog,

[00:50:07] they've been like,

[00:50:07] well,

[00:50:07] we can't do the real tree.

[00:50:08] Cause that thing is just going to leave its,

[00:50:10] uh,

[00:50:11] you know,

[00:50:11] needles everywhere.

[00:50:12] And the dog's going to eat it all up.

[00:50:14] And then she's going to have,

[00:50:16] um,

[00:50:16] trees don't drop a ton of needles.

[00:50:17] It depends.

[00:50:18] If you cut it down yourself,

[00:50:20] it's more alive and it'll last longer.

[00:50:22] You put that hot water in.

[00:50:23] Try to convince somebody who,

[00:50:25] who lives 25 minutes outside Manhattan to go find a place to cut their own tree down.

[00:50:30] City kids.

[00:50:31] That is a different,

[00:50:32] uh,

[00:50:32] entirely different.

[00:50:33] I definitely growing up in the city.

[00:50:34] We weren't going out to the farms and getting a tree.

[00:50:36] I mean,

[00:50:36] there are some people,

[00:50:37] city.

[00:50:37] Yeah.

[00:50:38] Yeah.

[00:50:38] I mean,

[00:50:38] but it's more common.

[00:50:39] I think I'm going to guess,

[00:50:40] just take a gander that the city kids often had their fake trees.

[00:50:44] I,

[00:50:44] we,

[00:50:44] my parents didn't even have a car.

[00:50:45] So it was public transit.

[00:50:46] We weren't,

[00:50:47] we had no way to haul this thing.

[00:50:49] We wouldn't got a real tree.

[00:50:50] Yeah.

[00:50:50] No,

[00:50:51] I understand there are reasons like not shaming anybody for not having it.

[00:50:55] I'm saying I personally shaming anyone on mutuality.

[00:50:59] Okay.

[00:51:00] I love that whole scene.

[00:51:02] Do you remember spirited last year?

[00:51:04] The,

[00:51:04] the,

[00:51:04] with Ryan Reynolds.

[00:51:06] the Ryan Reynolds,

[00:51:06] Will Ferrell movie.

[00:51:07] I haven't watched it yet.

[00:51:08] I haven't watched it.

[00:51:09] I love that movie.

[00:51:10] I've seen it like four times.

[00:51:12] The music is great.

[00:51:13] It is so good.

[00:51:14] But he does a whole scene about real trees.

[00:51:17] Oh yeah.

[00:51:18] So Zach,

[00:51:18] Zach is avoiding it.

[00:51:20] I saw it.

[00:51:20] I'll probably enjoy it.

[00:51:21] Yeah.

[00:51:22] That means Gail's going to love it.

[00:51:22] I'm going to love it.

[00:51:23] No,

[00:51:24] it's so good.

[00:51:25] You guys,

[00:51:26] why are you like this?

[00:51:27] I,

[00:51:28] I said,

[00:51:29] I listened to it.

[00:51:30] I,

[00:51:30] greatest showman has enjoyed that.

[00:51:32] I definitely,

[00:51:33] Gail loves the greatest showman.

[00:51:34] Yeah.

[00:51:34] Yeah.

[00:51:35] I may,

[00:51:36] I'm a favorite Christmas movies now.

[00:51:39] Yeah.

[00:51:39] Yeah.

[00:51:39] Hands down.

[00:51:40] I'll check it out.

[00:51:41] Jessica.

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:42] one of my favorites,

[00:51:42] if I could recommend one is the silent partner from 1978 starring Elliot Gould as a bank

[00:51:48] teller that gets tipped off that a guy is going to rob the bank in a Santa costume,

[00:51:54] takes the money for himself.

[00:51:55] So the robber ends up with nothing.

[00:51:57] But the bank is known to be robbed.

[00:51:59] The guy figures it out and comes back and scary antics ensue.

[00:52:04] Interesting.

[00:52:05] That makes me feel like when we watch.

[00:52:07] It is not a musical.

[00:52:08] Oh,

[00:52:08] I have a,

[00:52:10] we were talking about musicals.

[00:52:11] Sorry.

[00:52:12] We're talking about Christmas movies.

[00:52:13] I have maintained a list on my letterbox account of all the Christmas movies I've watched.

[00:52:18] And it's about two 50.

[00:52:19] Uh,

[00:52:20] at this point is diehard included.

[00:52:22] I'm just curious.

[00:52:23] Does it make Christmas list?

[00:52:24] This is an established thing.

[00:52:25] Yeah.

[00:52:26] It's,

[00:52:26] it's,

[00:52:26] I think we're all done arguing that way.

[00:52:29] It was very intentionally a Christmas movie.

[00:52:32] Yes.

[00:52:34] When you mentioned the robbery and all that,

[00:52:36] that's what popped in my head.

[00:52:37] Scary and this ensuing.

[00:52:38] I was like,

[00:52:38] Oh,

[00:52:38] I,

[00:52:39] I watched,

[00:52:39] I heard only for the first time.

[00:52:41] The other last year,

[00:52:42] last year we watched it at Christmas and I never seen that at Christmas.

[00:52:45] I was like,

[00:52:45] Oh,

[00:52:45] this is interesting.

[00:52:47] I have a question about Handel's Messiah.

[00:52:52] How many of them do you guys have any feelings about Handel's Messiah?

[00:52:56] Yeah.

[00:52:56] I'm tired of it.

[00:52:58] It's overdone.

[00:52:58] And I hate all of those like churches where nobody can sing,

[00:53:01] but they still do it anyway.

[00:53:03] Yeah.

[00:53:04] Yeah.

[00:53:05] Yeah.

[00:53:06] Yeah.

[00:53:07] Yeah.

[00:53:08] I can take it or leave it.

[00:53:09] I feel like if I were at a candlelight service,

[00:53:13] I'd be okay with it.

[00:53:14] But there's no part of me that's like,

[00:53:16] man,

[00:53:16] Christmas is not complete unless I've heard Handel's Messiah.

[00:53:21] I'm not even sure what that song is.

[00:53:23] No,

[00:53:23] no,

[00:53:23] no.

[00:53:23] It's not a song.

[00:53:24] It's a whole.

[00:53:25] Yeah.

[00:53:25] It's a whole play,

[00:53:31] the hallelujah chorus.

[00:53:32] Yeah.

[00:53:33] Okay.

[00:53:33] Which that part of the concerto is supposed to be the Easter portion of the concerto.

[00:53:42] Like you're supposed to be reserving that.

[00:53:44] And that's part of,

[00:53:45] part of what made,

[00:53:46] you know,

[00:53:46] fundamentalist high school Nate,

[00:53:48] who was too much of a purist about everything.

[00:53:50] That's part of what made me upset was because like,

[00:53:53] we're supposed to be doing this at Easter.

[00:53:55] And I remember one year our music director at my,

[00:53:58] my church,

[00:53:59] which I don't think we should have been doing this because they didn't have the talent,

[00:54:02] but still did anyway,

[00:54:04] was like,

[00:54:05] we're going to do part of Handel's Messiah at Christmas.

[00:54:08] And then we're not going to do the hallelujah chorus.

[00:54:10] We're going to save the hallelujah chorus for Easter,

[00:54:13] which he ended up doing,

[00:54:15] which was kind of annoying because then it kind of,

[00:54:17] it sort of confused all of the visitors that came to the church.

[00:54:20] They're like,

[00:54:20] why are we doing this?

[00:54:22] Because it's traditionally played at Christmas time now.

[00:54:25] Yes.

[00:54:26] I mean,

[00:54:26] like no people.

[00:54:28] Jingle bells was not written to be a Christmas song.

[00:54:31] Right.

[00:54:31] Handel's Messiah.

[00:54:32] Over the river and through the woods was a grandmother's house.

[00:54:35] And I fully say that my favorite things should not be considered a Christmas song at all.

[00:54:43] I have felt that is an interesting one.

[00:54:46] Why did that become a Christmas song?

[00:54:48] Yeah.

[00:54:49] How did that become a Christmas song?

[00:54:50] She names a whole bunch of things and some of them are things that occur in wintertime.

[00:54:54] But I always think like,

[00:54:55] even when she says brown paper packages tied up with string,

[00:54:57] to me it's like,

[00:54:58] that's what you'd ship.

[00:54:59] That's,

[00:55:00] yeah.

[00:55:01] Or that's a gift for somebody on their birthday.

[00:55:03] Like if it's in brown paper,

[00:55:06] that's,

[00:55:06] that's a very utilitarian thing.

[00:55:08] Exactly.

[00:55:09] That's not a Christmas presentation.

[00:55:12] Yeah.

[00:55:12] Right.

[00:55:12] Like that's not the final form the thing is taking when you jam it to somebody.

[00:55:15] And raindrops on roses is very springy.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:18] There's all sorts of spring things that get mentioned.

[00:55:20] Whiskers on kittens.

[00:55:21] I don't think it's like Christmas time in the movie when she sings that.

[00:55:24] No,

[00:55:24] it isn't.

[00:55:25] I mean like it's all over the map,

[00:55:27] you know?

[00:55:27] Yeah.

[00:55:28] Yeah.

[00:55:28] It's like throughout the calendar year,

[00:55:29] there's things that I enjoy.

[00:55:31] So I think we're in agreement.

[00:55:33] Actually,

[00:55:33] the four of us on this point,

[00:55:35] we've all landed on the same.

[00:55:37] Good job,

[00:55:37] guys.

[00:55:38] You found something.

[00:55:39] Not liking that as a Christmas song.

[00:55:42] So I'm curious to,

[00:55:44] to maybe get some reflections on different,

[00:55:48] maybe transitions that you've made over the years on ways that you've adjusted to

[00:55:53] your shifts in your faith and how you've adjusted to make Christmas fit with that

[00:56:00] or made it easier to go through the holiday season for yourself or a way of reclaiming

[00:56:06] it or owning it.

[00:56:07] What?

[00:56:08] I feel like I've gone through a few different ones and I'm curious what that's looked like.

[00:56:12] I got one that's,

[00:56:13] that's pretty fundamental.

[00:56:19] Stopping putting up a nativity.

[00:56:21] Yeah.

[00:56:22] I continued to put up a nativity for a while.

[00:56:24] I really enjoyed the nativity that I had.

[00:56:26] It was,

[00:56:26] it was pretty,

[00:56:28] pretty unusual,

[00:56:29] pretty distinct,

[00:56:30] uh,

[00:56:31] had a really nice,

[00:56:32] uh,

[00:56:34] style to it.

[00:56:35] I enjoyed putting it up.

[00:56:38] And last year was the first year that we just left it in the box.

[00:56:42] And instead I put up,

[00:56:45] uh,

[00:56:45] like laser woodcut mid century home from,

[00:56:49] uh,

[00:56:51] uh,

[00:56:51] uh,

[00:56:52] world market and then bought some California raisins figures on,

[00:56:56] on eBay and have them,

[00:56:58] uh,

[00:56:59] partying outside the house,

[00:57:00] uh,

[00:57:00] at Christmas time.

[00:57:02] So,

[00:57:02] uh,

[00:57:03] that is very silly.

[00:57:05] Um,

[00:57:07] it's,

[00:57:07] I don't know if it's necessarily magical,

[00:57:09] but the California raisins are in the claymation Christmas TV special.

[00:57:15] California raisins are a hundred percent Christmas.

[00:57:17] They're definitely Christmas.

[00:57:19] They're part of that.

[00:57:20] And the figures that I got are Christmas figures.

[00:57:22] Like one's got a sand hat and all this.

[00:57:24] Perfect.

[00:57:24] Um,

[00:57:25] so no more nativity,

[00:57:27] but we have the California raisins now.

[00:57:29] There you go.

[00:57:30] That's awesome.

[00:57:31] But,

[00:57:31] but that really,

[00:57:33] it,

[00:57:34] it was a decision.

[00:57:35] It was,

[00:57:35] it was like,

[00:57:36] you know what?

[00:57:36] I just can't,

[00:57:38] I can't do the nativity anymore.

[00:57:40] Let's do something.

[00:57:41] So not that.

[00:57:43] Yeah.

[00:57:44] Cause that's the center of the mantle,

[00:57:46] you know?

[00:57:46] So what's going to be a thing that will command some attention.

[00:57:51] That'll be interesting right there.

[00:57:53] And first thing I thought of,

[00:57:54] of course,

[00:57:54] was the California raisins.

[00:57:56] Yeah.

[00:57:57] Nice.

[00:57:57] That's amazing.

[00:57:58] I was going to,

[00:57:58] I was going to say,

[00:58:00] but when you talked about taking the nativity out,

[00:58:02] I'm like,

[00:58:02] I hope you put like,

[00:58:03] put something irreverent there.

[00:58:05] Like,

[00:58:05] and silly and funny is great.

[00:58:08] Like,

[00:58:08] I think taking out the seriousness of it and putting something that makes you

[00:58:12] actually smile and have actual joy.

[00:58:15] And,

[00:58:16] uh,

[00:58:16] that just brings humor into it is,

[00:58:19] can be really soothing.

[00:58:20] I know for myself,

[00:58:22] um,

[00:58:22] it was,

[00:58:23] uh,

[00:58:23] Christmas cards were one of those ways I felt like I had to proclaim my

[00:58:28] faith.

[00:58:28] Like it was one of,

[00:58:29] you know,

[00:58:30] if you're not going to invite people to the Christmas concert or whatever

[00:58:33] you're putting on,

[00:58:34] if you didn't succeed in witnessing or evangelizing or whatever,

[00:58:37] I was like,

[00:58:37] well,

[00:58:37] Christmas cards are going to be the way that I still let everyone know

[00:58:41] what the meaning,

[00:58:42] true meaning of Christmas is.

[00:58:43] So I'd find,

[00:58:44] I'd look around for Christmas cards that were pretty,

[00:58:46] but that still portrayed the message of Jesus.

[00:58:49] Like that was something I did as an evangelical.

[00:58:52] And so I think one of those transitions,

[00:58:55] Happy holidays.

[00:58:56] No,

[00:58:56] absolutely not.

[00:58:57] No,

[00:58:58] no.

[00:58:58] I had to say something about Jesus in it and the meaning.

[00:59:00] Yeah.

[00:59:01] Oh,

[00:59:02] I know people who capitalize the Christ.

[00:59:05] And it's not even Christmas.

[00:59:06] It's Christ mess in every message.

[00:59:08] Like it's nonstop.

[00:59:09] Yeah.

[00:59:10] All caps.

[00:59:10] All caps.

[00:59:11] Always.

[00:59:12] Yes.

[00:59:12] Case M A S.

[00:59:13] Exactly.

[00:59:14] So for me,

[00:59:15] part of the,

[00:59:16] I guess my,

[00:59:17] you know,

[00:59:17] switching out the nativity was,

[00:59:18] uh,

[00:59:19] sending out irreverent Christmas cards and then,

[00:59:21] you know,

[00:59:22] fun Christmas cards,

[00:59:23] Snoopy on my Christmas cards,

[00:59:25] uh,

[00:59:26] silliness on my Christmas cards.

[00:59:27] Uh,

[00:59:28] things that were just entertaining and fun and enjoyable and joyful without the whole heaviness,

[00:59:34] uh,

[00:59:35] that came along with having to.

[00:59:36] Angry,

[00:59:37] salty,

[00:59:37] New Jersey themed Christmas.

[00:59:39] I did have a New Jersey Christmas,

[00:59:40] like themed Christmas card once.

[00:59:42] Yes,

[00:59:42] I did.

[00:59:42] It's part of my accepting my transition to Jersey.

[00:59:44] I just got a Christmas card that I'm,

[00:59:46] cause something to have like a gift card in or whatever.

[00:59:49] Like I got a thing for my sister and her partner and,

[00:59:53] and it says like,

[00:59:54] you bring joy to the world.

[00:59:57] That's amazing.

[00:59:58] Nice.

[00:59:58] And I,

[00:59:59] and I really like the look of it and I like what it says,

[01:00:03] but I also in buying,

[01:00:04] I'm like,

[01:00:05] I'll bet my mom's going to be offended by this.

[01:00:07] Like you can't take the phrase joy to the world and apply it to a,

[01:00:12] just a human.

[01:00:14] Okay.

[01:00:15] You know what?

[01:00:16] That's a great,

[01:00:17] I feel like my earliest deconstruction memories actually,

[01:00:20] when it came to Christmas was in when I was still believing.

[01:00:24] And I,

[01:00:24] for my transition to,

[01:00:25] I think it was,

[01:00:26] it feels similar to your timeline and that you were talking about 2018,

[01:00:29] Zach.

[01:00:29] I feel like 2018 was a transition for me.

[01:00:31] 2019.

[01:00:32] I was still believing,

[01:00:33] but it was,

[01:00:34] the wheels were starting to come off little by little.

[01:00:36] When I first met Nate,

[01:00:37] you know,

[01:00:37] went into a progressive church and I still,

[01:00:39] I haven't been all year this year.

[01:00:41] And I definitely Trump's election has done something for me to even listen to

[01:00:45] progressive messages.

[01:00:46] And it's like the God stuff is hitting me very differently.

[01:00:49] All of a sudden,

[01:00:49] not that I feel like I was already an atheist Christian.

[01:00:52] If that,

[01:00:52] that would be the label I would have put on myself,

[01:00:54] but now it's like anything Christian messaging is hitting me,

[01:00:57] which is,

[01:00:58] it's rough.

[01:00:59] It feels very abrasive if I were to like to take a word and put it on it.

[01:01:03] Anyhow.

[01:01:05] So my,

[01:01:06] one of those transitions for me was when I was still believing in all of

[01:01:11] this,

[01:01:11] it was Jesus is incarnate.

[01:01:13] So God being personally with us,

[01:01:16] even if I was starting to doubt a lot of stuff,

[01:01:19] it was like,

[01:01:20] okay,

[01:01:20] well we could see God in us.

[01:01:23] What you just said,

[01:01:23] sorry about replacing Jesus with joy in us.

[01:01:26] I was like,

[01:01:26] well,

[01:01:26] what if we see Jesus in people?

[01:01:28] What if God connecting with us is seeing God in humans?

[01:01:31] What if God in the flesh is something we should be embracing more of?

[01:01:36] And,

[01:01:36] and that was a twisting,

[01:01:37] like a,

[01:01:38] a step forward for me in,

[01:01:39] in kind of moving beyond the evangelical beliefs that I've been passed on to

[01:01:43] being like the verses.

[01:01:45] I mean,

[01:01:45] we do this at our wedding.

[01:01:46] We read the one Bible passage we read was God is love and whoever lives in

[01:01:51] love,

[01:01:52] God lives in them,

[01:01:53] you know?

[01:01:53] And I,

[01:01:53] I love that because it has a universalist vibe of divinity living in people.

[01:01:57] And anyone who lives in love lives in God.

[01:02:00] It's a little broader than just,

[01:02:02] if you believe in Jesus,

[01:02:03] then he lives in you.

[01:02:04] Uh,

[01:02:05] it's anyone who's living in love has the essence of God in them.

[01:02:09] So I think,

[01:02:10] uh,

[01:02:10] for me that,

[01:02:11] that first,

[01:02:11] I,

[01:02:12] I'd love that comment you made about,

[01:02:14] you know,

[01:02:14] how an evangelical might be offended.

[01:02:16] I can't replace joy to the world being about Jesus to being about us.

[01:02:19] And I'm like,

[01:02:20] but isn't that interesting that like,

[01:02:21] for me,

[01:02:22] one of those first steps was looking at Jesus as God incarnate and being like,

[01:02:26] humanity can be God incarnate.

[01:02:28] That should be something we see God in people.

[01:02:30] And that's something beautiful and something important.

[01:02:33] So that was like maybe my first step out of the narrow box that I'd been given

[01:02:38] before I started my irreverent Christmas cards and that kind of stuff.

[01:02:42] Curious other steps you guys have gone through.

[01:02:44] Joy is Jesus first,

[01:02:46] yourself last and others in between.

[01:02:51] What about for you?

[01:02:52] Do you remember any of your steps or?

[01:02:54] Yeah.

[01:02:54] I mean,

[01:02:54] like I was saying before it was,

[01:02:56] uh,

[01:02:57] there were different steps and stages like,

[01:02:59] you know,

[01:02:59] after leaving fundamentalism,

[01:03:00] the,

[01:03:00] this kind of the trappings of the Santa stuff entering the realm,

[01:03:06] even in an evangelical environment,

[01:03:08] when I was in more of a mainstream evangelical world,

[01:03:10] you know,

[01:03:11] the,

[01:03:11] the,

[01:03:12] the,

[01:03:12] the Santa stuff was all over the place,

[01:03:15] which was kind of fun.

[01:03:15] It,

[01:03:16] there was a lot that I felt like,

[01:03:18] you know,

[01:03:19] when I started attending a mainstream evangelical church,

[01:03:21] I felt like I could actually sort of have fun with things.

[01:03:26] And that was kind of the big,

[01:03:27] the big thing that,

[01:03:29] and,

[01:03:29] and the church that I was attending at the time,

[01:03:31] one of their like core values that they put on their tagline for everything was church is fun.

[01:03:36] And that kind of stuck with me because,

[01:03:38] you know,

[01:03:39] throughout,

[01:03:39] however,

[01:03:40] like 20,

[01:03:41] yeah,

[01:03:41] 24.

[01:03:41] Fundamentalism didn't have fun in it,

[01:03:43] even though it did.

[01:03:44] you know,

[01:03:45] 20,

[01:03:45] 20 some odd years of my life,

[01:03:47] church was not fun.

[01:03:49] It was,

[01:03:49] you know,

[01:03:50] it was serious.

[01:03:51] It was responsibility.

[01:03:52] And,

[01:03:52] you know,

[01:03:53] so to be in that kind of environment where we could do fun stuff,

[01:03:57] like,

[01:03:57] you know,

[01:03:58] the Santa hats,

[01:04:00] the,

[01:04:01] all,

[01:04:02] all of the,

[01:04:02] the little trapping singing songs that were,

[01:04:05] um,

[01:04:06] not necessarily Christian Christmas carols.

[01:04:10] That was,

[01:04:11] um,

[01:04:11] fun.

[01:04:12] Yeah,

[01:04:13] that was a step.

[01:04:13] Um,

[01:04:15] and then,

[01:04:16] yeah,

[01:04:17] that kind of stuck around for a little while.

[01:04:19] Um,

[01:04:20] when,

[01:04:20] when I ended up at that X 29 church,

[01:04:22] a lot of that stuff kind of started to die down.

[01:04:24] Um,

[01:04:25] because again,

[01:04:26] X 29 churches are nothing,

[01:04:27] if not very somber about,

[01:04:30] you know,

[01:04:30] the holy holidays.

[01:04:32] Um,

[01:04:33] and,

[01:04:34] and so those,

[01:04:35] those sorts of enjoyable,

[01:04:39] magical things were kind of,

[01:04:41] uh,

[01:04:41] pushed off to the side a little bit.

[01:04:43] Um,

[01:04:44] we still kind of like threw on some Santa hats and stuff,

[01:04:46] but I did,

[01:04:46] we did have people in our church who were like not comfortable with that.

[01:04:50] Um,

[01:04:51] what about like since?

[01:04:53] Well,

[01:04:53] yeah,

[01:04:53] you know,

[01:04:53] so,

[01:04:53] so yeah,

[01:04:54] I'm getting there.

[01:04:54] Sorry.

[01:04:55] Um,

[01:04:56] yeah.

[01:04:56] And then,

[01:04:56] you know,

[01:04:57] coming out of that world and,

[01:04:59] and beginning to embrace some of the,

[01:05:02] I think part of what,

[01:05:03] um,

[01:05:05] what I found enjoyable about entering the sort of Hillsong world were the,

[01:05:09] the amount of talent that we had in,

[01:05:12] um,

[01:05:13] like in the musician pool.

[01:05:15] Um,

[01:05:16] and so everybody around Christmas time,

[01:05:18] everybody was doing different things and playing different things.

[01:05:21] And we had the little jazz band in the lobby,

[01:05:23] uh,

[01:05:25] with,

[01:05:25] with the smooth jazz Christmas thing going on.

[01:05:29] And I could get involved in every little aspect of that.

[01:05:32] And,

[01:05:32] and the artistry around non Christian Christmas stuff was starting to come back up.

[01:05:38] Um,

[01:05:39] now for me,

[01:05:40] it's all about just avoiding,

[01:05:42] um,

[01:05:43] the religious Christmas songs,

[01:05:46] um,

[01:05:47] you know,

[01:05:47] and sticking to those,

[01:05:51] um,

[01:05:52] musicians who,

[01:05:54] who tend to avoid that stuff as well.

[01:05:57] Um,

[01:05:58] you know,

[01:05:59] as far as yelling at my Siri,

[01:06:01] my,

[01:06:02] my home pod,

[01:06:03] skip that song,

[01:06:04] skip that song.

[01:06:07] Siri,

[01:06:08] skip that song.

[01:06:09] Yeah.

[01:06:10] I go to the home alone soundtrack.

[01:06:13] Yeah.

[01:06:13] My nostalgia.

[01:06:14] I do love that.

[01:06:16] It's not,

[01:06:17] it's not,

[01:06:18] uh,

[01:06:20] I don't,

[01:06:20] I don't,

[01:06:21] as far as like,

[01:06:22] I guess Christmas for me has lost a lot of the kind of magic.

[01:06:28] Um,

[01:06:29] but I think there are certain things around it that I enjoy,

[01:06:36] like movies,

[01:06:37] like those little,

[01:06:39] you know,

[01:06:39] go sitting down with some of the classics or even finding new Christmas movies to really get into and enjoy.

[01:06:45] So I'm excited to try spirited that,

[01:06:47] you know,

[01:06:48] something,

[01:06:48] something new to,

[01:06:49] to,

[01:06:50] to,

[01:06:51] I think the thing I enjoyed about spirited is that it's not trying to make you believe in Santa.

[01:06:56] That's the other thing that triggers the hell out of me.

[01:06:58] Yeah.

[01:06:58] Yeah.

[01:06:59] Why are we,

[01:07:00] it feels very evangelical.

[01:07:02] Yeah.

[01:07:03] Oh,

[01:07:03] The polar express is,

[01:07:06] I think the,

[01:07:07] miss me with this,

[01:07:08] please.

[01:07:09] The notorious example of that.

[01:07:10] What about us?

[01:07:12] Oh yeah.

[01:07:12] Elf.

[01:07:13] Right?

[01:07:14] Yeah.

[01:07:14] Elf.

[01:07:14] Elf.

[01:07:15] Elf.

[01:07:15] Elf.

[01:07:15] Another one.

[01:07:16] Try to like force.

[01:07:17] Yeah.

[01:07:18] Force Santa belief on people.

[01:07:19] But like Santa Claus.

[01:07:21] All of that.

[01:07:22] It's not,

[01:07:22] he's not going to work unless he will leave.

[01:07:25] Everybody's got to believe.

[01:07:27] Yeah.

[01:07:29] Yeah.

[01:07:29] I think that's part of what,

[01:07:31] what leaves bad tastes in my mouth.

[01:07:34] Like I,

[01:07:35] I still love Elf for the sheer silliness of,

[01:07:38] of the movie,

[01:07:39] but it just,

[01:07:40] it,

[01:07:41] it falls.

[01:07:42] We did it guys.

[01:07:43] We made the best coffee.

[01:07:47] Congratulations.

[01:07:50] But,

[01:07:50] but yeah,

[01:07:51] I think those kinds of things,

[01:07:53] the,

[01:07:53] you know,

[01:07:54] I,

[01:07:54] I almost never drink hot chocolate except this time of year.

[01:07:58] And that,

[01:07:58] you know,

[01:07:59] the flavors,

[01:08:00] the tastes,

[01:08:00] the smells,

[01:08:02] um,

[01:08:03] those kinds of things.

[01:08:04] Um,

[01:08:05] eggnog,

[01:08:05] coquito.

[01:08:06] I mean,

[01:08:07] you know,

[01:08:07] like I,

[01:08:08] I live in an area that's got a lot of,

[01:08:10] uh,

[01:08:11] Latine people.

[01:08:12] So,

[01:08:12] you know,

[01:08:12] coquito is a big,

[01:08:14] big part of,

[01:08:14] so when that flavor starts coming around,

[01:08:16] I'm like,

[01:08:16] yes,

[01:08:17] let's,

[01:08:17] let's do it.

[01:08:18] I had that for the first time last year.

[01:08:19] It was very good.

[01:08:20] Oh yeah.

[01:08:20] Yeah.

[01:08:21] I currently have nine cartons of eggnog in my garage fridge.

[01:08:25] I,

[01:08:26] uh,

[01:08:26] eggnog is a little much for me.

[01:08:28] Even coquito is,

[01:08:29] I don't,

[01:08:29] but what I like about drink glasses of it.

[01:08:31] I put a little in my tea every morning and I'll put it in oatmeal and I'll do French toast with it.

[01:08:38] Um,

[01:08:40] Oh,

[01:08:40] put it in like doing icing on cookies,

[01:08:42] put a little in that.

[01:08:43] Okay.

[01:08:43] That's fair.

[01:08:44] I don't know.

[01:08:44] The expiration date's not like till February.

[01:08:47] So we just load up.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:48] Might as well.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:49] Just use it for everything.

[01:08:50] I love that.

[01:08:51] But yeah,

[01:08:51] in my tea,

[01:08:52] it's the best.

[01:08:53] Yeah.

[01:08:54] So I,

[01:08:55] yeah,

[01:08:55] I guess focusing on those kinds of things,

[01:08:57] um,

[01:08:57] you know,

[01:08:58] Gail,

[01:08:58] you were talking about the lights.

[01:08:59] Um,

[01:09:00] I did want to mention though that,

[01:09:03] um,

[01:09:04] Gail twisted my arm a few years ago,

[01:09:06] um,

[01:09:07] and convinced me to drag her to Rockefeller center or dragged me to Rockefeller center.

[01:09:12] Oh,

[01:09:13] that was a bad,

[01:09:14] bad decision to make.

[01:09:15] Don't go.

[01:09:16] And listen,

[01:09:16] if you like think of,

[01:09:17] you know what it is,

[01:09:18] home alone is,

[01:09:19] is to blame for a lot of our New York nostalgia.

[01:09:22] If you're in your forties.

[01:09:23] Okay.

[01:09:23] And,

[01:09:24] and wanting to go to Rockefeller,

[01:09:26] if you want to go,

[01:09:27] go,

[01:09:27] uh,

[01:09:28] uh,

[01:09:28] in maybe in November,

[01:09:30] maybe.

[01:09:30] And when does it go up?

[01:09:31] No,

[01:09:31] I would,

[01:09:32] no,

[01:09:32] it goes up.

[01:09:33] Yeah.

[01:09:33] It usually goes up the first week of December.

[01:09:35] So,

[01:09:36] and then once it's up and the lights are on,

[01:09:38] that's it.

[01:09:39] You're,

[01:09:39] you're in a mob of people.

[01:09:41] And you will not get like you,

[01:09:42] do you have to like get tickets like weeks in advance?

[01:09:45] And they're like,

[01:09:46] it's like $60 to,

[01:09:47] to skate.

[01:09:48] It's stupid.

[01:09:49] And that doesn't include,

[01:09:50] well,

[01:09:50] I mean,

[01:09:50] like I play hockey,

[01:09:52] so I bring my own skates,

[01:09:53] but like that doesn't include if you have to rent your own skates,

[01:09:56] it's like another $30 to rent.

[01:09:58] And then you have to get a locker.

[01:10:00] Cause you can't just leave your stuff sitting.

[01:10:02] So yeah.

[01:10:03] However much that costs a hundred dollars to skate around.

[01:10:07] It's to skate in a crowd of people that are moving at,

[01:10:11] at most three miles an hour.

[01:10:14] Okay.

[01:10:14] Here's my pet peeve with skating.

[01:10:16] What people who don't know how to skate is they grab onto you because

[01:10:19] they're going to fall.

[01:10:20] Cause they're scared.

[01:10:21] And then you're like,

[01:10:22] what?

[01:10:22] You're dragging me down.

[01:10:24] I'm like,

[01:10:24] I want to,

[01:10:25] if somebody tries to grab me,

[01:10:26] I have instincts that want to punch them.

[01:10:27] So this is just a bad thing when I'm around people who can't skate and

[01:10:30] they start trying to clutch onto me.

[01:10:32] That doesn't bother me as much,

[01:10:33] but I think part of it,

[01:10:34] because it was,

[01:10:34] you were teaching kids to skate.

[01:10:36] That's why you're used to being grabbed,

[01:10:37] but I'm like,

[01:10:38] don't touch me.

[01:10:39] And this is my personal bubble.

[01:10:40] So you shouldn't have taken Nate to the tree.

[01:10:42] You should have taken for his home alone experience.

[01:10:44] Should have taken him to Duncan's toy chest to get two turtle doves.

[01:10:48] That's fright.

[01:10:50] Oh man.

[01:10:50] I remember walking around looking for that.

[01:10:53] And F.A.O.

[01:10:53] Schwartz does.

[01:10:55] Oh yeah.

[01:10:55] You were walking around looking for Duncan.

[01:10:57] So that does not exist.

[01:10:58] It's not.

[01:10:58] The old F.A.O.

[01:11:00] Schwartz that's not there anymore.

[01:11:01] They,

[01:11:01] they based it off.

[01:11:02] Yeah.

[01:11:02] Yeah.

[01:11:03] They did.

[01:11:03] They did reopen F.A.O.

[01:11:05] Schwartz eventually,

[01:11:05] but it's not in the same location.

[01:11:06] So I talked Nate into going with me to Rockefeller and the,

[01:11:10] the crowds of people were so thick and big,

[01:11:12] big that like,

[01:11:13] I never understood the stampede thing until that moment.

[01:11:16] And then I was like,

[01:11:17] we're going to die.

[01:11:18] We're actually like,

[01:11:19] this crowd is pushing us.

[01:11:20] Like we're not walking at our own pace.

[01:11:22] No,

[01:11:22] we are now being shuffled by a crowd that we cannot get out of.

[01:11:27] It was a very,

[01:11:28] it was basically,

[01:11:29] I would,

[01:11:30] you know,

[01:11:30] you,

[01:11:30] you were probably safe for just raising your feet off the ground and letting the crowd.

[01:11:34] Cause if you put your feet on,

[01:11:36] the ground,

[01:11:37] you would get dragged under.

[01:11:38] So no,

[01:11:40] I highly zero stars.

[01:11:41] Do not recommend.

[01:11:42] Don't go try to see Rockefeller.

[01:11:44] The tree.

[01:11:44] It used to be that you could go into Manhattan.

[01:11:47] You go into Midtown Manhattan and like on Christmas day,

[01:11:52] because most people were families and,

[01:11:55] and Midtown would be practically empty,

[01:11:57] but that's for some reason.

[01:12:00] That's no longer.

[01:12:01] Everybody got the memo.

[01:12:02] Yeah.

[01:12:03] Everyone.

[01:12:03] And they're all going into the city on Christmas day.

[01:12:06] And I'm like,

[01:12:07] Hey,

[01:12:07] this was my family's idea.

[01:12:09] Go away.

[01:12:10] Guys are ruining my childhood idea that we enjoyed.

[01:12:13] Yeah.

[01:12:14] I think,

[01:12:14] I think really you just have to wait until like the last,

[01:12:17] the last week that the tree is up.

[01:12:19] Yeah.

[01:12:19] That's probably.

[01:12:20] And then that's,

[01:12:21] yeah,

[01:12:21] it's like a middle of January or something.

[01:12:23] It's probably your best.

[01:12:24] Your best shot.

[01:12:25] And post them the next year.

[01:12:26] And be like,

[01:12:29] nobody will know.

[01:12:30] No one will know the words.

[01:12:32] These are Christmas hacks from Jessica.

[01:12:35] Yeah.

[01:12:36] Hire a photographer.

[01:12:38] There.

[01:12:38] Okay.

[01:12:39] So,

[01:12:39] um,

[01:12:39] I'm,

[01:12:40] I'm going to put it out there.

[01:12:41] I know we don't have as big listenership to really ruin this for,

[01:12:44] for,

[01:12:45] for the town.

[01:12:45] But,

[01:12:46] um,

[01:12:47] if you live anywhere near the Hudson Valley of New York,

[01:12:50] um,

[01:12:51] in the town of Hudson,

[01:12:53] they have a winter walk.

[01:12:54] That is.

[01:12:56] Super cute.

[01:12:56] It's phenomenal.

[01:12:58] I,

[01:12:58] that was the most fun I've had in any sort of holiday thing.

[01:13:01] It was very non-religious themed,

[01:13:04] thankfully.

[01:13:05] Um,

[01:13:05] and just.

[01:13:06] Little stores.

[01:13:07] All the shops along the main street got into it.

[01:13:10] They would open up and they would have musicians inside the stores.

[01:13:13] You could walk around and do some shopping.

[01:13:16] Yeah.

[01:13:18] A jazz band outside.

[01:13:19] There was like a little circus,

[01:13:21] like a little circus,

[01:13:22] you know,

[01:13:23] uh,

[01:13:24] trailer.

[01:13:24] And they did a couple of acts out front.

[01:13:26] And all these vendors came out with cow,

[01:13:30] uh,

[01:13:30] kettle corn and,

[01:13:32] um,

[01:13:33] you know,

[01:13:33] hot chocolate,

[01:13:34] eggnog and,

[01:13:35] uh,

[01:13:35] bone broth and hot dogs and everything.

[01:13:39] And it was,

[01:13:39] it was a great,

[01:13:40] it was,

[01:13:40] it was just missing snow.

[01:13:42] I'm like,

[01:13:43] as a Canadian,

[01:13:44] I was like,

[01:13:44] come on guys.

[01:13:45] Well,

[01:13:45] missing something here.

[01:13:46] Yeah.

[01:13:47] But it was cute.

[01:13:48] I got plenty of snow cause I went skiing the next day.

[01:13:49] So.

[01:13:50] That's true.

[01:13:50] You went up in the mountain.

[01:13:51] Yeah.

[01:13:52] But yeah,

[01:13:52] if you,

[01:13:53] if you live anywhere near,

[01:13:54] or if you're thinking about visiting the Hudson Valley in New York,

[01:13:57] that is definitely a thing to check out.

[01:13:58] Here it's like 65 degrees.

[01:14:00] So.

[01:14:01] Or Texas Christmas.

[01:14:02] So.

[01:14:03] Yeah.

[01:14:05] It was like snow.

[01:14:06] What?

[01:14:06] Even if it's just cold,

[01:14:08] it would feel Christmassy.

[01:14:09] Okay.

[01:14:09] But you grew up in North Carolina.

[01:14:10] So could you get snow up a mountain?

[01:14:12] You can go up a mountain and be like,

[01:14:13] I'll be with the snow for,

[01:14:15] for a moment and then come back down.

[01:14:17] Okay.

[01:14:17] Yeah.

[01:14:17] It snowed on Christmas quite a few times.

[01:14:19] Even in Charlotte.

[01:14:21] Oh wow.

[01:14:22] What is,

[01:14:22] what is,

[01:14:22] what is Seattle weather like around Christmas?

[01:14:25] Does it snow?

[01:14:25] Is it raining?

[01:14:26] Is it raining?

[01:14:27] Well,

[01:14:28] climate change has,

[01:14:29] has changed that significantly.

[01:14:31] So growing up,

[01:14:33] it felt like we'd get snow every three years or so.

[01:14:38] Maybe,

[01:14:39] maybe two out of three years,

[01:14:41] but I only have a,

[01:14:43] I have a memory of a,

[01:14:44] of a couple instances of it really piling up.

[01:14:47] enough to like build a snowman or anything.

[01:14:50] And now,

[01:14:52] and,

[01:14:52] but at the same time,

[01:14:53] we also like had like one hot week in the summer.

[01:14:57] And now we have full summers with lots of heat and hotter and hotter.

[01:15:03] And we have,

[01:15:06] most years we get snow several days.

[01:15:10] And my kids have had a lot of snowy days.

[01:15:14] So it's,

[01:15:15] it's definitely changed.

[01:15:17] Um,

[01:15:18] but I,

[01:15:19] I remember it being like a really big deal to me as a kid,

[01:15:22] like wanting a white Christmas.

[01:15:25] And normally we wouldn't get snow to like January or February.

[01:15:29] Yeah.

[01:15:29] Us too.

[01:15:29] Yeah.

[01:15:30] And we've had it a couple of times and it's been so cool.

[01:15:34] My,

[01:15:34] my favorite Christmas experience in a,

[01:15:38] in a city though,

[01:15:39] was,

[01:15:40] my,

[01:15:41] my wife and I got married in December and,

[01:15:43] uh,

[01:15:44] we weren't really taking into account that that would make Christmas and

[01:15:49] anniversary celebrating.

[01:15:50] Right.

[01:15:50] Difficult going forward.

[01:15:52] But,

[01:15:52] we honeymooned in London and,

[01:15:55] uh,

[01:15:57] there was just so much Christmas stuff everywhere.

[01:16:00] And we,

[01:16:01] it wasn't Christmas Eve,

[01:16:02] but we went to a Christmas evening service at St.

[01:16:06] Paul's Cathedral.

[01:16:07] Wow.

[01:16:08] That was just phenomenal.

[01:16:12] Um,

[01:16:12] and I've,

[01:16:14] I've never experienced anything like that anywhere else.

[01:16:17] It was just so cool to be in,

[01:16:20] I don't know,

[01:16:21] the land of Dickens.

[01:16:21] My,

[01:16:22] my parents are total Anglophiles that have Dickens parties and dress up

[01:16:26] like,

[01:16:26] we do caroling door to door with my dad wearing like a top hat and all

[01:16:30] this stuff,

[01:16:31] you know,

[01:16:32] and,

[01:16:32] uh,

[01:16:33] the Dickens village and,

[01:16:34] and,

[01:16:35] you know,

[01:16:35] my uncle acted in a Christmas carol every year and all this.

[01:16:39] And so Christmas to me is kind of Britain.

[01:16:43] It's very British.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:45] Do you do the,

[01:16:46] my parents are very British.

[01:16:47] My mother is.

[01:16:48] So we've gotten those a few times.

[01:16:49] We do those every year.

[01:16:51] It's of interest,

[01:16:52] but no,

[01:16:53] but yeah,

[01:16:53] that's not the point.

[01:16:55] Yeah.

[01:16:55] It's a,

[01:16:55] yeah,

[01:16:56] it's a tradition.

[01:16:56] We do it.

[01:16:57] The only time I've ever done those was like here in Canada.

[01:16:59] Yeah.

[01:17:00] My sister is doing them one year.

[01:17:01] We don't,

[01:17:01] we do it with my parents.

[01:17:03] Wow.

[01:17:03] Yeah.

[01:17:04] Every year.

[01:17:05] I can't wait for this year.

[01:17:06] Cause you wear your hat at the table.

[01:17:08] Yeah.

[01:17:08] The little crown.

[01:17:09] Oh yeah.

[01:17:11] I'm missing this,

[01:17:12] the snow in Jersey.

[01:17:13] I have to say like,

[01:17:14] Nate will point out to me,

[01:17:16] like talking about climate change and what you were experiencing.

[01:17:18] Zach,

[01:17:19] same Nate was like,

[01:17:19] Oh,

[01:17:19] growing up,

[01:17:20] we had,

[01:17:20] we had white Christmas is often enough.

[01:17:22] And now,

[01:17:23] and every January it would be like,

[01:17:25] okay,

[01:17:25] we're saying goodbye to the grass until March.

[01:17:27] Right.

[01:17:27] And now there's,

[01:17:28] you don't see snow on the ground.

[01:17:30] I mean,

[01:17:30] it's very small later once in a blue moon.

[01:17:32] No,

[01:17:32] no,

[01:17:32] no.

[01:17:33] I mean,

[01:17:33] we do get a small layer still,

[01:17:35] but it's the,

[01:17:36] the big storm is the once in a blue moon.

[01:17:38] But then what's,

[01:17:41] what had,

[01:17:41] had been the case over the years,

[01:17:44] what growing up,

[01:17:45] it was the big storm.

[01:17:46] And that would be it.

[01:17:48] Literally,

[01:17:49] you're never seeing another blade of grass until March,

[01:17:53] April.

[01:17:53] And now,

[01:17:53] and then now it melts like a day later or two days later,

[01:17:56] you know,

[01:17:57] completely.

[01:17:58] And there's nothing left.

[01:17:59] And he'll point out to me the signs on the poles that still say like,

[01:18:03] if it's,

[01:18:03] if there's snow,

[01:18:04] don't park there.

[01:18:05] And I'll just laugh.

[01:18:05] I'll be like,

[01:18:06] I've never seen snow here.

[01:18:07] What are they talking about?

[01:18:08] But that's the vestiges.

[01:18:09] Cause we have snow warning signs still up.

[01:18:11] I didn't make it up that it used to snow here.

[01:18:12] What's funny about where I live in Montreal,

[01:18:15] in Canada,

[01:18:16] and I'm moving in,

[01:18:17] in two weeks.

[01:18:18] So it's,

[01:18:18] I'm saying goodbye to what I'm used to.

[01:18:20] And,

[01:18:20] and is we have to have snow tires on December 1st.

[01:18:23] Cause there's always snow.

[01:18:24] I mean,

[01:18:24] there's snow on the ground currently and that's regular,

[01:18:27] but actually the snow has picked up as it's warmed up because in Canada,

[01:18:30] it can get so cold where I live that like it doesn't snow because it's too cold.

[01:18:35] Too cold.

[01:18:36] Yes.

[01:18:36] So as it's warmed up,

[01:18:38] we've gotten dumped with like record snowfalls because it's just gone.

[01:18:41] So,

[01:18:42] so I kind of,

[01:18:43] I'm going to miss that.

[01:18:43] I'll like take videos of the snow.

[01:18:45] Now I'll look through my memory feeds and like,

[01:18:47] look every year snow this time of year.

[01:18:48] And now I'm going to be moving to the land where I'll have to look through my

[01:18:51] videos to see snow or I'll just come visit my kids and I'll,

[01:18:55] I'll get like a sense of it,

[01:18:56] dig out my car and be like,

[01:18:57] Hey,

[01:18:58] I'm done with that.

[01:18:58] I'm good now.

[01:18:59] Yeah.

[01:19:00] Get stuck in a snow pile and then be like,

[01:19:02] okay,

[01:19:03] the nostalgia is done.

[01:19:04] Nevermind.

[01:19:04] I'm good.

[01:19:05] I'm good.

[01:19:06] Yeah.

[01:19:06] So funny.

[01:19:07] What do you mean?

[01:19:07] I was supposed to bring a shovel in my car.

[01:19:10] Forgot.

[01:19:10] Forgot I needed that.

[01:19:13] Yeah.

[01:19:14] Yeah.

[01:19:15] Well,

[01:19:15] I mean,

[01:19:17] here we are on,

[01:19:18] on the other side of certain truth as you put it in your song,

[01:19:21] Zach.

[01:19:23] Um,

[01:19:24] um,

[01:19:24] um,

[01:19:24] and now we're finding other ways to celebrate this time of year,

[01:19:28] but I,

[01:19:30] um,

[01:19:31] yeah,

[01:19:31] I,

[01:19:31] I enjoy kind of,

[01:19:33] I guess still some of the,

[01:19:35] like,

[01:19:36] I think I'm starting to pick up a little bit of the,

[01:19:38] the holiday vibe again.

[01:19:40] Um,

[01:19:41] you know,

[01:19:42] and,

[01:19:42] and finding different ways of enjoying that.

[01:19:45] Like,

[01:19:46] um,

[01:19:47] you know,

[01:19:47] my,

[01:19:47] my dad had started kind of picking up on misoka on new years,

[01:19:52] which is the Japanese,

[01:19:53] um,

[01:19:54] uh,

[01:19:55] end of year celebration.

[01:19:57] And,

[01:19:58] um,

[01:19:58] and so that's kind of fun,

[01:20:00] um,

[01:20:01] to,

[01:20:01] to,

[01:20:02] to take hold of like another tradition.

[01:20:04] That's,

[01:20:04] that's a part of my,

[01:20:05] my DNA.

[01:20:07] Um,

[01:20:07] I,

[01:20:08] I don't enjoy the fact that my dad decides let's have a prayer and as well,

[01:20:12] but like whatever it,

[01:20:13] you know,

[01:20:13] I don't like to muddy the waters with like,

[01:20:16] yeah,

[01:20:16] this is,

[01:20:16] this is a distinctly Japanese thing we're doing,

[01:20:18] but dad wants to bring,

[01:20:19] you know,

[01:20:20] his new faith in when it's fine,

[01:20:22] whatever.

[01:20:23] I don't,

[01:20:23] I don't care.

[01:20:23] It's,

[01:20:24] you know,

[01:20:24] it's a very minor thing because that's very like not in your face when it comes to religion.

[01:20:29] It's just sort of like sitting down to family gatherings.

[01:20:32] We sit down to pray,

[01:20:32] but,

[01:20:33] um,

[01:20:34] I'm sure that is probably for each of us.

[01:20:36] Interesting with family,

[01:20:38] evangelical family and navigating just that,

[01:20:41] right?

[01:20:41] Like blending where you are today with,

[01:20:45] with family that's still very into all of the stuff that you're no longer,

[01:20:49] um,

[01:20:50] seeing that way,

[01:20:51] right?

[01:20:51] Like we've each had got our own processes that we've gone through.

[01:20:54] Yeah.

[01:20:55] Yeah.

[01:20:55] How do,

[01:20:55] how do you all do like handle that?

[01:20:57] Do you have thoughts?

[01:20:58] Is there other experiences that you've had or even like some tips for dealing with those

[01:21:03] kinds of circumstances?

[01:21:05] You know,

[01:21:05] when you get to this,

[01:21:06] you know,

[01:21:07] the holiday gatherings and stuff with evangelical family,

[01:21:10] I still gather with my family and they're all very,

[01:21:14] very,

[01:21:14] very evangelical.

[01:21:16] And yes,

[01:21:17] we have worked,

[01:21:18] we've been very intentional about staying connected,

[01:21:22] even though I'm,

[01:21:25] you know,

[01:21:26] so deconstructed.

[01:21:27] And they all know,

[01:21:29] like some of them haven't asked,

[01:21:32] they haven't been like,

[01:21:33] so where are you at now,

[01:21:35] Jessica?

[01:21:35] Like they,

[01:21:36] cause I'm not real explicit on my Facebook or in places like that.

[01:21:40] And some of my family just doesn't follow me cause they don't want to know.

[01:21:43] I think it's easier to just not know for some people.

[01:21:46] It's easier.

[01:21:47] Yeah.

[01:21:47] And so,

[01:21:48] um,

[01:21:49] I have several close family members that just don't look and,

[01:21:53] and they're like,

[01:21:54] I love you,

[01:21:54] Jessica.

[01:21:54] I just don't read your stuff.

[01:21:55] I just,

[01:21:56] it's not because I,

[01:21:57] I don't want to read what you write or what you say,

[01:22:00] but I just,

[01:22:01] I just want to have our relationship be what it's always been.

[01:22:04] And I'm like,

[01:22:04] okay,

[01:22:04] that's fine.

[01:22:05] I,

[01:22:05] I hear that.

[01:22:07] Um,

[01:22:08] so my family has been very kind and very intentional about there's just a

[01:22:14] quick prayer before a meal because that's what everybody does.

[01:22:17] And so everybody gathers around and holds hands and praise.

[01:22:20] And,

[01:22:20] you know,

[01:22:21] um,

[01:22:21] my brothers become Catholic.

[01:22:22] So if it's,

[01:22:23] if it's at his house,

[01:22:24] then we all,

[01:22:25] you know,

[01:22:26] make the,

[01:22:26] the sign of the cross and,

[01:22:28] and,

[01:22:29] you know,

[01:22:30] bless us,

[01:22:30] O Lord.

[01:22:31] And these aren't gifts that we're about to receive from thy bounty through

[01:22:33] Christ our Lord.

[01:22:34] Amen.

[01:22:34] Or whatever.

[01:22:35] And,

[01:22:35] uh,

[01:22:36] I don't know that.

[01:22:37] I mean,

[01:22:37] I've,

[01:22:37] I just rattled it off,

[01:22:39] but like,

[01:22:39] I don't know it,

[01:22:40] know it the way they do.

[01:22:41] So I usually try to follow along and call it good.

[01:22:46] And my,

[01:22:47] my parents don't know that at all.

[01:22:49] My parents are not Catholic and the other side of their family isn't

[01:22:52] Catholic either.

[01:22:53] So everybody just kind of nods along.

[01:22:55] If it's at my mom's house,

[01:22:56] then it's a traditional prayer where my dad or,

[01:22:58] um,

[01:23:00] you know,

[01:23:00] one of the other men,

[01:23:01] men,

[01:23:02] of course,

[01:23:03] leads the prayer.

[01:23:04] And we all,

[01:23:05] we all say a hearty amen and call it good.

[01:23:08] And then from,

[01:23:09] from that point on,

[01:23:10] I think we're pretty much done with the hyper evangelical stuff.

[01:23:14] And that has been kind of them to just let it be,

[01:23:18] let there be air there and let their own,

[01:23:22] like more like Bible readings and,

[01:23:25] and,

[01:23:26] you know,

[01:23:27] what are you praising God for right now?

[01:23:29] Conversations have kind of faded away.

[01:23:31] So that's been nice.

[01:23:33] And I think that we try really,

[01:23:36] really hard to love seeing each other and loving,

[01:23:40] love being together and not make it about religion so that we can just stay

[01:23:44] connected.

[01:23:44] And that's been very,

[01:23:47] very sweet and very wonderful.

[01:23:48] And I feel like I can,

[01:23:51] I can sit there.

[01:23:52] I do think it's a whole other experience for me.

[01:23:54] Like I am so keenly aware of the fact that this is so different to be on the

[01:24:01] other side and to look around and be like,

[01:24:04] Oh,

[01:24:04] I don't know that.

[01:24:07] This is my thing.

[01:24:08] I don't feel like I'm on the inside anymore.

[01:24:10] I feel like I'm on the outside.

[01:24:13] So it all lands differently.

[01:24:15] I hear it all through a whole different ears and it's fascinating.

[01:24:22] It's almost more,

[01:24:23] I try to sit and just sit with it and absorb the reality of the fact that I

[01:24:29] don't buy any of this stuff anymore.

[01:24:32] But again,

[01:24:33] it's brief,

[01:24:34] so it doesn't force me to do it the whole time or anything,

[01:24:36] but yeah.

[01:24:38] And I,

[01:24:38] I'm proud of my family for trying to,

[01:24:41] to do that and to stay loving and connected and,

[01:24:45] and focused on just how much we enjoy each other.

[01:24:48] We enjoy seeing each other.

[01:24:49] We want to be together.

[01:24:51] So that's been beautiful.

[01:24:53] And I'm grateful for that.

[01:24:56] Definitely have a range of family gatherings that,

[01:24:59] you know,

[01:25:00] on the good end,

[01:25:03] reflect what you just expressed.

[01:25:05] And on the more difficult end,

[01:25:07] there's a lot more.

[01:25:09] Yeah.

[01:25:09] It sounds like Zach's family's just stopped gathering at all,

[01:25:13] you know,

[01:25:13] for the most part.

[01:25:14] Well,

[01:25:15] Thanksgiving.

[01:25:16] Oh yeah.

[01:25:17] Just Thanksgiving.

[01:25:18] Yeah.

[01:25:21] Yeah.

[01:25:21] Yeah.

[01:25:21] Well,

[01:25:22] my,

[01:25:22] my wife's family all moved to Idaho,

[01:25:23] you know,

[01:25:24] to help build the theocracy,

[01:25:25] but,

[01:25:26] um,

[01:25:28] my,

[01:25:28] uh,

[01:25:30] my mom,

[01:25:32] uh,

[01:25:33] has,

[01:25:33] has remarried and they live part time here and part time in Florida.

[01:25:38] But I always host,

[01:25:40] you know,

[01:25:42] since my dad died,

[01:25:43] I,

[01:25:43] I,

[01:25:43] I host the,

[01:25:45] the Christmas gatherings.

[01:25:47] Okay.

[01:25:48] And when my wife's family,

[01:25:51] uh,

[01:25:52] was still here,

[01:25:53] we would go to their place.

[01:25:55] So we,

[01:25:56] we would,

[01:25:56] I would host Christmas Eve for,

[01:25:58] for my family.

[01:26:00] And then my wife and our kids would do our Christmas thing in the morning on

[01:26:04] Christmas.

[01:26:05] And then we'd drive out to her family and do Christmas day with them.

[01:26:10] And when I was at their house,

[01:26:11] I just kind of try to avoid,

[01:26:14] um,

[01:26:17] prayer and stuff like that.

[01:26:19] You know,

[01:26:20] it's their house.

[01:26:21] So they're probably going to like be the ones to say,

[01:26:24] but you know,

[01:26:24] if they want to be like,

[01:26:25] Hey Zach,

[01:26:26] why don't you do the prayer?

[01:26:27] I just like try to be busy.

[01:26:30] Yeah.

[01:26:31] You know,

[01:26:31] like,

[01:26:32] ah,

[01:26:32] these roles need moving around and covering or whatever.

[01:26:37] You know,

[01:26:37] like try to be doing something.

[01:26:39] I didn't,

[01:26:40] you know,

[01:26:40] I hadn't told them that,

[01:26:41] that they still don't know really.

[01:26:43] I mean,

[01:26:44] they may have intuited,

[01:26:45] but they don't,

[01:26:47] you know,

[01:26:48] boundaries.

[01:26:49] I,

[01:26:50] I don't,

[01:26:50] I don't feel like I need to tell them that I'm not a Christian.

[01:26:54] Um,

[01:26:55] I only told my mom a few months ago and,

[01:26:59] um,

[01:27:02] it went better than I expected.

[01:27:04] But,

[01:27:06] uh,

[01:27:06] so this will be the first time,

[01:27:08] uh,

[01:27:09] hosting Christmas where everybody that will be attending will know that our

[01:27:14] family are not people of faith anymore.

[01:27:18] So,

[01:27:20] uh,

[01:27:20] my plan then is to,

[01:27:23] before we eat,

[01:27:24] lead a prayer to the California raisins.

[01:27:27] Nice.

[01:27:27] That's awesome.

[01:27:28] No,

[01:27:29] I,

[01:27:30] I,

[01:27:32] if,

[01:27:33] if I,

[01:27:33] I,

[01:27:34] I could see a situation where like my mom just asks if it's okay if she or her

[01:27:39] husband prays before we eat.

[01:27:41] And I don't have a problem with that.

[01:27:43] Like that's their ritual or tradition.

[01:27:45] That's fine.

[01:27:46] You know,

[01:27:47] if,

[01:27:48] if it were,

[01:27:49] you know,

[01:27:50] this is your house.

[01:27:51] Why don't you go ahead and lead?

[01:27:52] Like,

[01:27:53] no.

[01:27:54] Yeah.

[01:27:55] Yeah.

[01:27:56] Yeah.

[01:27:57] It's easier when it's,

[01:27:58] you know,

[01:27:58] something short and the person hosting is saying a quick prayer.

[01:28:01] It,

[01:28:01] that seems to be just easier.

[01:28:03] I still find myself getting antsy.

[01:28:05] Like I still find myself scratching the dog,

[01:28:09] um,

[01:28:09] or distracted.

[01:28:11] Um,

[01:28:11] it's,

[01:28:12] it's a coping mechanism.

[01:28:13] Uh,

[01:28:13] when,

[01:28:14] when they get into that,

[01:28:14] depending on who's praying,

[01:28:16] uh,

[01:28:16] they'll have a lot to do with how anxious I get because certain people go on a

[01:28:20] lot,

[01:28:20] lot longer and need to make their points and need to turn it into a sermon.

[01:28:23] And other people are able to just pass through it like more normally.

[01:28:26] Like it's just a prayer before the meal.

[01:28:28] It's all this is.

[01:28:29] Thanks for the food.

[01:28:30] Let's eat.

[01:28:30] That's,

[01:28:31] that's,

[01:28:31] those are my favorite ones,

[01:28:32] but I feel like I attempted to like prayer,

[01:28:35] pray without praying once,

[01:28:38] just like made statements.

[01:28:40] Yeah.

[01:28:41] Not,

[01:28:41] not like directed at God or whatever.

[01:28:43] Just like,

[01:28:44] it's so nice to be here with everybody and around Christmas time.

[01:28:50] And I feel like that's how atheists pray.

[01:28:53] And it sounds so great when they do it.

[01:28:54] If you use the right tone.

[01:28:55] Yeah.

[01:28:56] Some people just assume you're praying.

[01:28:58] Yeah.

[01:28:58] It's perfect.

[01:29:00] Exactly.

[01:29:00] I love that.

[01:29:01] Yeah.

[01:29:01] Maybe add some just in there.

[01:29:03] that we've all gathered here.

[01:29:05] I just,

[01:29:05] I just,

[01:29:05] yeah,

[01:29:05] exactly.

[01:29:06] Just,

[01:29:06] just,

[01:29:07] I'm just so grateful that we've all gathered here just to be around this

[01:29:11] table.

[01:29:12] Just,

[01:29:13] it's such a blessing.

[01:29:14] To just enjoy this bounty.

[01:29:16] It totally,

[01:29:16] it just sounds like a prayer,

[01:29:18] but now you're just expressing some thoughts.

[01:29:21] I love it.

[01:29:22] Like,

[01:29:22] I just can't wait to open these presents.

[01:29:26] Yeah.

[01:29:27] Perfect.

[01:29:27] I love it.

[01:29:28] I love it.

[01:29:28] I definitely can't.

[01:29:30] The short stuff is great.

[01:29:32] That kind of stuff.

[01:29:32] I think if it gets into a long family devotionals around the holidays,

[01:29:36] which has happened,

[01:29:38] then I really do not know how internally to cope with those kinds of things.

[01:29:43] I start,

[01:29:43] I start to feel like I'm climbing a wall internally.

[01:29:45] I have a,

[01:29:46] I have a big struggle with it.

[01:29:47] Um,

[01:29:48] so that is a challenge.

[01:29:49] Last Thanksgiving,

[01:29:51] our family,

[01:29:52] I was expecting the devotional to come out with my evangelical family.

[01:29:55] And instead they just chose to write one thing they were thankful for and stick it in a box.

[01:30:01] And then they kind of read,

[01:30:02] read them all.

[01:30:02] And it turned really beautiful,

[01:30:04] really fast.

[01:30:04] And I was like,

[01:30:05] I wish it was more of this kind of a thing instead of like,

[01:30:07] let's drone out,

[01:30:09] you know,

[01:30:09] a whole Bible story and make sure stuff.

[01:30:12] I just end up finding something else to do.

[01:30:14] Like,

[01:30:14] Oh,

[01:30:14] my kid needs to be like,

[01:30:16] I don't know,

[01:30:17] help to use the bathroom or something.

[01:30:20] All of a sudden I have something that I have to do.

[01:30:23] Yeah.

[01:30:24] Yeah.

[01:30:25] It's,

[01:30:26] um,

[01:30:27] those ones are challenging in your family because there's an,

[01:30:29] there's a,

[01:30:30] an expectation.

[01:30:31] Everybody sits around the,

[01:30:32] everybody's sit and everybody's got to listen.

[01:30:34] And,

[01:30:34] uh,

[01:30:35] so then I have to find different ways to cope through those.

[01:30:37] And,

[01:30:37] and it's hard cause it's like,

[01:30:39] you know,

[01:30:39] this is my chance to see a lot of my family that I,

[01:30:42] that gather together just for those,

[01:30:43] one times a year,

[01:30:44] you know,

[01:30:45] like that's my chance to see everyone.

[01:30:46] So bailing out of those,

[01:30:48] you know,

[01:30:49] it's not something I'm willing to do and I want to miss seeing everyone.

[01:30:52] So,

[01:30:52] right.

[01:30:53] Yeah.

[01:30:54] Yeah.

[01:30:55] Like to,

[01:30:56] to the,

[01:30:56] the prayer thing,

[01:30:57] like in my family,

[01:30:58] there are enough in the family who like,

[01:31:01] we,

[01:31:02] you know who we are during like the prayer,

[01:31:04] whoever,

[01:31:05] like whoever's leading the prayer,

[01:31:06] if they're long winded,

[01:31:07] you kind of just look around the room and you could see,

[01:31:09] you know,

[01:31:09] who are all the ones who are not into this,

[01:31:11] who are looking at each other.

[01:31:12] Like,

[01:31:12] are they going to end soon?

[01:31:14] You got like,

[01:31:14] you got my brother who's doing the thing where he like,

[01:31:17] he's sipping his drink or he's just,

[01:31:19] you know,

[01:31:20] he kind of shuffles around.

[01:31:22] I'm always the person that starts eating before they pray.

[01:31:24] Like I'm that person.

[01:31:26] And they're like,

[01:31:27] Jessica,

[01:31:27] Jessica,

[01:31:28] we wanted to pray really quick first.

[01:31:29] And I'm like,

[01:31:30] Oh,

[01:31:30] okay.

[01:31:31] Go ahead.

[01:31:32] Yeah.

[01:31:32] Enjoy.

[01:31:33] Okay.

[01:31:34] Enjoy your prayer.

[01:31:34] I'm going to be sitting here with my meal.

[01:31:36] To be thankful for my food.

[01:31:38] If I don't know that it's good.

[01:31:39] Yeah,

[01:31:40] exactly.

[01:31:40] Come on.

[01:31:41] Thank you.

[01:31:42] If I haven't even tested it out yet.

[01:31:44] Another,

[01:31:45] another useful way to avoid those situations is that football is on TV all day on Christmas.

[01:31:52] There you go.

[01:31:53] So if you're at a family gathering in which they have the game on TV,

[01:31:58] you can be more invested in it than you normally would be.

[01:32:01] Right.

[01:32:01] There you go.

[01:32:02] Or wait till they start praying and then just crank up the volume really loud.

[01:32:07] No,

[01:32:07] I'm just kidding.

[01:32:08] Yeah.

[01:32:09] Oops.

[01:32:10] Sorry.

[01:32:10] Sorry.

[01:32:10] I missed the prayer.

[01:32:11] The game was just really good.

[01:32:13] The important part of the game.

[01:32:15] Yeah.

[01:32:16] Zoning in on that commercial for Budweiser.

[01:32:23] It's really good every year.

[01:32:26] Too bad my,

[01:32:26] my family's not really like a football family.

[01:32:28] I'm not a football sport.

[01:32:29] Mine wasn't either.

[01:32:30] TV was never on.

[01:32:32] Uh,

[01:32:32] yeah.

[01:32:33] Same,

[01:32:33] same with my family.

[01:32:34] Growing up,

[01:32:34] now the TV.

[01:32:35] That was,

[01:32:35] that was at my in-laws house.

[01:32:37] That's,

[01:32:37] that was a way that I would avoid stuff.

[01:32:40] Yeah.

[01:32:41] With our,

[01:32:41] with our family,

[01:32:41] the TV will be on,

[01:32:42] but just to like have the music playing through the Apple TV and the sound bar and everything.

[01:32:47] But yeah,

[01:32:48] that's.

[01:32:48] I'll put on like classic Christmas things on mute on the TV.

[01:32:53] Mm-hmm.

[01:32:53] Oh yeah,

[01:32:54] that's a good idea.

[01:32:55] Just like have that as a background thing.

[01:32:58] Mm-hmm.

[01:32:59] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:00] I think that's.

[01:33:00] I usually put a,

[01:33:01] now I put a fireplace on there with music.

[01:33:03] Yeah.

[01:33:04] You alone.

[01:33:05] Yeah,

[01:33:05] I feel like my brother would do something like that.

[01:33:07] Like put,

[01:33:07] put Charlie Brown Christmas on really real quiet.

[01:33:10] Yeah.

[01:33:11] Just have something going on the screen.

[01:33:13] Yeah.

[01:33:13] That's helpful.

[01:33:14] Good,

[01:33:14] good tips for like what to do when you're trying to,

[01:33:17] trying to cope.

[01:33:17] Um,

[01:33:18] and strike that balance.

[01:33:19] I love these ideas.

[01:33:20] These are great.

[01:33:22] Yeah.

[01:33:22] I,

[01:33:23] I,

[01:33:23] this,

[01:33:24] I know I'd mentioned,

[01:33:25] you know,

[01:33:25] that I'll just finish with my last little thing,

[01:33:28] but I was talking about,

[01:33:29] uh,

[01:33:29] you know,

[01:33:30] one of the first things I clinged onto was the story of Jesus,

[01:33:33] God being in people,

[01:33:34] right?

[01:33:34] Like not necessarily Jesus,

[01:33:36] but applying that to everyone.

[01:33:37] Uh,

[01:33:38] I think another,

[01:33:39] another way that when I was deconstructing my faith,

[01:33:43] something about the Christmas story that still resonated with me was being the

[01:33:46] outsider.

[01:33:47] Um,

[01:33:49] that,

[01:33:49] you know,

[01:33:50] the,

[01:33:50] the idea that there wasn't place in the inn and,

[01:33:52] and sort of,

[01:33:53] um,

[01:33:53] the shuffle sort of the feeling like lost in that season where,

[01:33:57] you know,

[01:33:57] we all gather together in our homes,

[01:33:58] but sometimes you feel like you're the one that's,

[01:34:01] um,

[01:34:01] that doesn't,

[01:34:02] there's no place.

[01:34:03] There's no place in the end.

[01:34:04] Yeah.

[01:34:04] You are the odd person out.

[01:34:06] You don't,

[01:34:06] there's no,

[01:34:07] no space to fit you in there.

[01:34:08] There's no room for you.

[01:34:09] Um,

[01:34:10] I don't know.

[01:34:10] That gave me a lot of comfort in the beginning of my deco,

[01:34:12] construction.

[01:34:13] That story was a Christmas story.

[01:34:15] I was very familiar with and feeling like,

[01:34:17] Oh,

[01:34:17] that's where I am.

[01:34:18] Like I can locate myself through that exact Christmas story.

[01:34:21] And,

[01:34:22] uh,

[01:34:22] so for maybe anyone listening,

[01:34:24] who's also feeling like they,

[01:34:25] there's no space for them in evangelical Christmas stuff.

[01:34:29] Um,

[01:34:30] maybe that piece of the story can still,

[01:34:32] can still see you,

[01:34:33] um,

[01:34:34] and make you feel seen.

[01:34:36] Yeah.

[01:34:36] I love that.

[01:34:37] Yeah.

[01:34:38] Who wants to pray us out?

[01:34:42] Just,

[01:34:42] it's just so great.

[01:34:43] Guys,

[01:34:44] it's just,

[01:34:45] it's just really meaningful tonight to have us all here.

[01:34:50] I'm just so fucking grateful.

[01:34:53] I'm so fucking grateful.

[01:34:54] But those California raisins,

[01:34:56] what do they say?

[01:34:57] Well,

[01:34:57] they had a certain line that they used.

[01:34:59] Did they have a tagline?

[01:35:00] I think there was a tagline.

[01:35:02] I'm going to Google it and find out what it was.

[01:35:04] Christmas special,

[01:35:04] not necessarily,

[01:35:05] but,

[01:35:05] uh,

[01:35:07] yeah,

[01:35:07] I,

[01:35:07] uh,

[01:35:08] I just,

[01:35:10] just,

[01:35:10] I'm not interested in praying.

[01:35:14] I'm thinking of saying something else.

[01:35:16] I can't remember what it was now,

[01:35:17] but,

[01:35:17] um,

[01:35:19] uh,

[01:35:20] I,

[01:35:20] I won't do a callback by doing an Apu impression.

[01:35:23] Oh,

[01:35:23] no.

[01:35:24] Oh,

[01:35:25] Lord.

[01:35:27] but I'll say everybody listening,

[01:35:28] check out the silent partner,

[01:35:30] check out true tone bulbs.

[01:35:32] If you want to get LEDs that look like mid century incandescence,

[01:35:36] I just changed all my roof lights to true tone bulbs.

[01:35:40] Their website alone is so killer.

[01:35:43] Um,

[01:35:43] but I,

[01:35:44] I went individually screwed in bulbs,

[01:35:47] like quality lights.

[01:35:50] Um,

[01:35:50] okay.

[01:35:51] So,

[01:35:52] uh,

[01:35:52] that's,

[01:35:53] that's my recommendation for,

[01:35:54] for Christmas decor.

[01:35:56] Cool.

[01:35:57] I love it.

[01:35:59] Yeah.

[01:35:59] We've got the tacky,

[01:36:00] um,

[01:36:01] the really,

[01:36:03] uh,

[01:36:04] you know,

[01:36:04] low effort,

[01:36:05] the,

[01:36:06] the laser lights that,

[01:36:08] you know,

[01:36:08] kind of spin around on,

[01:36:09] on the side of the house.

[01:36:11] And then a big wreath.

[01:36:13] That's,

[01:36:13] you know,

[01:36:14] one of my friends sent me a really great playlist of all just like really naughty songs.

[01:36:20] Christmas.

[01:36:21] Everything is very raunchy.

[01:36:24] Clarence Carter's backdoor Santa.

[01:36:28] I think it might be in there.

[01:36:29] It's a whole playlist.

[01:36:31] I think we should put it in our show notes.

[01:36:33] Okay.

[01:36:34] Yeah.

[01:36:34] Send us the link.

[01:36:36] We'll stick it in the show notes.

[01:36:36] We'll give people some,

[01:36:37] some things to listen to.

[01:36:39] I shared out a,

[01:36:40] uh,

[01:36:40] a link.

[01:36:41] It's in,

[01:36:41] I have it up in my Google drive.

[01:36:43] My,

[01:36:43] my,

[01:36:44] my mix for this year.

[01:36:46] If,

[01:36:46] uh,

[01:36:46] folks want to download that,

[01:36:47] I have it for free.

[01:36:49] We'll put those.

[01:36:50] Yeah,

[01:36:50] we'll put,

[01:36:50] we'll put them,

[01:36:51] we'll put them both as well as,

[01:36:52] as well as other links,

[01:36:53] Zach,

[01:36:53] your own,

[01:36:54] um,

[01:36:54] original Christmas music as well.

[01:36:56] And we'll,

[01:37:00] listen to it this year.

[01:37:03] but yeah.

[01:37:05] Hey,

[01:37:06] I'm looking to add to a vinyl collection.

[01:37:07] So do you have it on vinyl?

[01:37:09] That'd be cool.

[01:37:09] Yeah.

[01:37:10] Nice.

[01:37:11] All right.

[01:37:11] I might hit you up for next year.

[01:37:13] We'll,

[01:37:13] I'll have it ready to go.

[01:37:14] Yeah.

[01:37:14] Yeah.

[01:37:14] Yeah.

[01:37:15] I got like 30 copies left or something.

[01:37:17] Nice.

[01:37:18] All right.

[01:37:18] That song is not on there.

[01:37:19] It's just the full length,

[01:37:20] the darkest time of year.

[01:37:22] Okay.

[01:37:23] but,

[01:37:23] uh,

[01:37:24] yeah.

[01:37:25] Cool.

[01:37:26] Good stuff.

[01:37:27] All right.

[01:37:27] Well,

[01:37:28] thank you guys.

[01:37:28] Thanks for hanging out.

[01:37:29] Yeah.

[01:37:29] Thanks for being willing to,

[01:37:30] to come spend Christmas with us and to,

[01:37:33] uh,

[01:37:33] to solo,

[01:37:34] do our own deconstruction.

[01:37:37] I don't know.

[01:37:38] Yeah.

[01:37:38] Ex-Vingual Christmas celebration.

[01:37:40] Yeah.

[01:37:41] Talking through surviving Christmas holidays as our faith shifts.

[01:37:44] And,

[01:37:45] uh,

[01:37:45] it's one of those things that weighs on people around this time of year.

[01:37:48] So it's great to be able to have conversations about it.

[01:37:51] Yeah.

[01:37:51] And we'll see you,

[01:37:52] uh,

[01:37:52] we'll see you all in the new year.

[01:37:54] Yeah.

[01:37:55] Happy new year.

[01:37:56] Celebrate the reason for the trauma.

[01:38:00] Take care,

[01:38:01] everyone.

[01:38:01] Merry Christmas.

[01:38:04] Thanks for listening to another episode of the full mutuality podcast.

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